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Riighttt...So we as Americans should stop supporting the thousands of hard-working honest soilders who are giving their lives for us because we saw a video of two bad apples?
That logic seems to be on the same level as the soilders in this video.
They are all hard-working, hero patriots - right? I'm sorry, but I'm not buying it. Soldiers have been a mix of bad and good from Roman times, and modern soldiers are no different.
They are average people, often people just out of high school, suddenly thrust into situations that require diplomacy, broad minded cultural experience and forward thinking. I think most of them are very unequipped for this kind of experience - and they are naturally going off the rails.
I don't agree with the action in Iraq - and I don't think these clueless kids should be over there. It is a shitty job they've been thrust into - and I say they should be brought back.
It is folly, however, to lay very much of the blame on the grunts. Their superiors and their superiors' superiors are the ones who need to be court martialed. Yeah, I'm looking at you, Rummy.
> critical thought about their behavior is rampant in the US
man I just feel sorry for em, its the War Pigs who deserve critical thought
> I didnt know that getting wood was looting.
It was the lingerie model, officer! I'm innocent!
The other half have grey hair and sit on government chairs.
I sincerely hope at least some people in the world are smart enough to realize that the average American is just as revolted by this act as they are. Just because our politicians and our military are asswipes doesn't mean we support and side with them.
do you think that taxi driver, getting wood, was america's enemy? (before he saw american justice firsthand, that is)
as far as i'm concerned, you can tell me up and down how i have been moored and frankened and sean penned or whoever, all you like, and it just makes you look sillier.
know why? because i find it funny you presume i (as an anti-neocon) must find direction from some "leader", and you presume the leader must be michael moore. but you're wrong on two accounts.
i don't have a leader, and generally avoid looking to filmmakers to tell me how to think. they may give me useful information or interesting perspectives to think about, but michael moore has very little sway on my understanding of the world. i prefer to rely on my own abilities to think, for myself, based on taking in as much information from as many different and varying sources as possible.
you think you're insulting me, but you're merely revealing your own crippling lack of independent and critical thinking skills.
so there.
Here's the thing. Everyone knows Saddam was bad, along with his regime. I'm sick of people claiming that any sort of judgement of how American soldiers act means you are 'with the terrorists'. That not a debate, but is instead an attempt to avoid debate.
Many war hawks like to push the argument that any actions our soldiers do can essentially be excused because Saddam is evil and responsible for mass murder. Well, I dunno about you, I'm not impressed with the notion that U.S. is right because they are better than a mass murder. The U.S. shouldn't be about being better than the lowest common demonitator. Abuse, such as that seen in this video, torture at Abu Gharib, keeping people locked up with no rights in secret prisons, is not what people would have expected from the U.S. until recently.
What those of us who question the government want to see true accountability. We want soldiers who abuse their positions to be punished without requiring a whistle blower to come out and expose them. We want those whose orders are responsible for such abuse to be accountable, all the way up to and including the president. Without accountability, people will continue to abuse their power, harming the image of the U.S. both abroad and at home.
America...
America...
America, FUCK YEAH!
Coming again, to save the mother fucking day yeah,
America, FUCK YEAH!
Freedom is the only way yeah,
Terrorist your game is through cause now you have to answer to...
America, FUCK YEAH!
So lick my butt, and suck on my balls,
America, FUCK YEAH!
What you going to do when we come for you now,
it’s the dream that we all share; it’s the hope for tomorrow
The music video
>>>> Not true. "Everyone" does NOT know what kind of evil we're up against. The latest proof of this is the whole world condemning Israel--a nation that wants to coexist peacefully and is an oasis of tolerance compared to its neighbors--for defending herself against a well-funded terrorist organization hiding among a civilian population and firing rockets.
>>> All these global appeasement weasels, and we're talking whole nations here, not just individuals, refuse to understand the magnitude of the threat that is Islamofascism. Winston Churchill tried to warn the world about the Nazis and was poo-pooed him in a similar manner.
"I'm sick of people claiming that any sort of judgement of how American soldiers act means you are 'with the terrorists'. That not a debate, but is instead an attempt to avoid debate."
>>>> "Debate" is rather useless, because the left-leaning in America and the world at large are in total denial about what Western Civilization is up against. 9-11 wasn't enough, the Taliban weren't enough, Saddam wasn't enough, the subway and train bombings in England and Spain weren't enough, and the broadcasted cold-blooded executions of journalists by masked cowards weren't enough.
>>>> The hezbos and others can't be reasoned with, only killed until there's none left. THAT is the reality of the situation. This enemy only understands brute force.
>>>> War atrocties are nothing new. There are bad soldiers, bad cops, bad doctors, etc. I don't excuse them, but look, if we lose against the jihadists then there will be NO civilization with any lawful standards in which to conduct trials punishing wrongdoing.
>>>> My objection to the video is that details are few while the general reaction the film crew is trying to provoke is the throwing of the baby out with the bathwater and to reflect poorly on America.
>>>>> We'll never know if the looters weren't also planting roadside IED's between "borrowing" wood.
>>>>> But even if we take this vid's events at face value and the tank crew are bad apples, we know damned well that America's drive-by media will NEVER allow the opposite view of the good deeds and actions of professional soldiers to be seen...not an inkling of GOOD news coming out of Iraq will reach American TVs if the drive-by nmedia has its way. Those idiots WANT us to fail because victory doesn't fit their narrow idealogy and threatens their power.
>>>>> These videos, for better or for worse, are more readily accessible than books, esp. to those who rarely read and don't know what to read when they do. That's why tv and movies are on lockdown while books (in the West) flow like lifeblood. The comments section, pro and con, enhances the experience.
>>>>> I never vote down videos I disagree with politically, but I retain the right to express my opinion just like anyone else. Dass all. Back to the fun.
That doesn't work. That creates martyrs and more young people willing to give their lives because their Father/Aunt/Uncle was run over by a tank. Not a good way to go.
Also QM, you have Godwinized this thread. You lose.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law
(from Wikipedia):
"Godwin's Law does not dispute whether, in a particular instance, a reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be apt. It is precisely because such a reference or comparison may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin argues in his book, Cyber Rights: Defending Free Speech in the Digital Age, that hyperbolic overuse of the Hitler/Nazi comparison should be avoided, as it robs the valid comparisons of their impact."
Depending on your interpretation of the Law (esp. the first sentence), either you can never use it, or there's an exception for when it's valid. I'd argue the latter, and say that it applies in this case.
Whether or not equating Radical Islamists with Nazis is open to debate, but I understood that q-shroom's point was that those who insist on fighting them are Cassandra-like Churchills.
This was a case where the comparison is apt - for purposes of legitimate debate - and isn't necessarily being used to hysterically attack one side or the other (again, my interpretation is open to debate, but that's how I read q-shroom's comment).
So technically the substance of the debate is not concluded.
You do make a valid point about the cycle of violence, which really isn't much of a mystery. At the same time, there are some people who are out to hurt us. Has the threat been overplayed? I'd say yes - it's not like they have brigades of tanks ready to use to roll through Poland or France, although they do have some people ready to abandon civility and blow themselves and others up.
Not a simple issue by any stretch of the imagination, of course.
And of course, the poor guy who lost his taxi got screwed. Hopefully he'll be able to appeal his case to US Army brass and he gets compensation... if you're an American citizen and truly concerned, I recommend writing to the Pentagon to find out. Old-fashioned letters can have as much power as infantry brigade...
So I think calling Godwin on this is correct - it's an apples and oranges thing.
i think godwin applies, BUT i don't see that godwin has the power to invalidate an argument. it's more of a marker that a certain point or threshold has been reached.
==
shroomer, too far gone. already has admitted she believes we are all brainwashed so there's no point listening to us. i'll engage anyone with an open mind who agrees both parties have something to contribute to dialogue. shroomer has knowledge far more penetrating and comprehensive of the real world than i ever could, so i treat text that flows from her fingertips as holy, so above my meager mind that i cannot comprehend it as it should be comprehended. so, i skip over it and read the next entry, as if the shroomer's holy text wasn't even there.
Stuff like this really makes me feel bad for the soldiers who are just over there, doing their jobs -- which hoopleheads like these guys make that much harder.
"We are looking into it. And mistakes, pretty ugly mistakes can get made in wartime. And that is again one of the reasons why if you can find a peaceful way to resolve things it is so much better. I would remind everybody here...it wasn't so long before that incident when people were saying 'Why don't you shoot a few looters in Baghdad because looting is causing terrible disruption...'
Frontline arrived late and saw this aggressive demonstration. They closed the scene by quoting the car's owner. What if they had been able to use a quote similar to Wolfowitz's above? Or what if Frontline investigated the situation even more and found out the wood was looted from another family and that they were furious? It's all in the framing and everybody has an agenda and biases.
i remember that exact thing happening in new orleans when people were looting. the military shot up stuff and tanks just started rolling over everybody's stuff. its the universal response to stem looting. you guys didn't know that?
to be fair, if you were 20 years old, carrying a couple of guns and driving a tank around all day, this would definitely seem like the most appropriate action... and the most kickass.
by-the-way, nobody pointed out how they crush the 'loot' with the tank. I thought that was a crucial error on their part. They should have moved the $16 worth of 2x4's off the roof, then smashed the car. That would have made more sense.
*worldaffairs