For the QI lovers out there, the QI Christmas special is on tonight, BBC2 at 2200 GMT.

Mithras was a Persian god, not Roman. Although his mystery cult was very, very popular among the Roman Legions. Wherever we have evidence of a Legion presence, we also find evidence of Mithras cult. As I recall Mithras was Ahura Mazda's (the infinitely good god of the Zoroastrian faith) general in his crusade against the devil Ahriman. Darius the Great's conquests were largely motivated out of missionary zeal to spread the Zoroastrian religion.

Also the host violated my biggest pet peeve in the world: talking about myth but calling it mythology. The difference between myth and mythology is identical to the difference between history and historiography. Myths are the stories themselves, mythology is reflection on myth. One would not say they enjoy historiography when what they read is a narrative of the past rather than a reflection on methods and uses of history.

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I do wish dara wouldn't say "errrrr" after everything he says.. love him otherwise, but that does annoy me

almost none of what he says is true. check the intarwebbs for yoursevles my fellow pirate lads hrrrrr

(sorry just watched southpark)

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Well, Mithras was no Mothra..

And Mithras holiday is certainly no Saturnalia.

>> ^scottishmartialarts:
Mithras was a Persian god, not Roman. Although his mystery cult was very, very popular among the Roman Legions. Wherever we have evidence of a Legion presence, we also find evidence of Mithras cult. As I recall Mithras was Ahura Mazda's (the infinitely good god of the Zoroastrian faith) general in his crusade against the devil Ahriman. Darius the Great's conquests were largely motivated out of missionary zeal to spread the Zoroastrian religion.


Well, Mithra was the Persian name. Adding the "s" on the end was just how it was Latinized. But the Roman Mithraic cult doesn't, as far as scholars can tell, have much in common with the Persian cult beyond the name and a few elements of symbolism--a lion-headed "Arrimanus," for instance, a clear Latinization of Ahriman. It's perfectly acceptable to refer to the Roman version of Mithras as a Roman god.

It has to be said, though, that Fry's facts about Mithras are just wrong. In the first place, we don't actually know what the central beliefs about Mithras were. They were Mysteries, not be written down or revealed to outsiders. The doctrines of Mithraism perished with its last follower. Reconstructions of Mithraic doctrine like the ones Fry read are merely speculative interpretations of the images found in the Mithraea--the caves where the Mysteries of Mithras were enacted.

However, some of the things Fry said are just plain wrong even as mere speculation. Mithras is never depicted as being born in a cave or manger, for instance, but emerging from a rock or an egg. He didn't die for anyone's sins or to give people eternal life. The central image of Mithras was instead the tauroctony--Mithras' slaying of a bull, usually assisted by a dog, a serpent, and a crab, clearly astrological symbolism. While there are a few superficial similarities with Christianity--as Fry mentioned, the head of the cult of Mithras was called Papa, just as the Pope is--they do not seem to go very deep.

And finally, it would be very strange for the December 25th date of Christmas to come from the cult of Mithras simply because it was a private mystery religion. Public celebrations just weren't allowed.

However, I'm a little surprised that Fry didn't mention Dies Natalis Solis Invicti--the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. It was celebrated in the late Roman Empire around the same time as Christmas as a public holiday, and so is a prime candidate for being an influence on the date of Christmas.

His quick dismissal of Saturnalia as being only somewhat influential, though, is just plain wrong. Many of the traditions of Christmas clearly come out of Saturnalia--gift-giving, visiting friends, and lavish feasts and celebrations. Many elements of Northern European Christmas celebrations just as clearly come from the pagan holiday "Jol" or "Yule," such as hanging mistletoe as a sign of peace and love, and the ornamenting of an evergreen tree.

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