Stumble This | You should also watch “Joe The Plumber: Obama's Plan Will Cut My Taxes” |
Obama explains his new tax cut plan one on one to a plumber, and does a damn good job doing it. I would like to see McCain display his mastery rhetorical arts as such.
update: John McCain mentioned this guy during tonight's debate. But he just didn't get it. He managed to use this against Obama during the debate. He's not Joe the plumber, he's "+$250,000/yr Joe".
update update: Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher (Joe the Plumber) from the Toledo event is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.
update: John McCain mentioned this guy during tonight's debate. But he just didn't get it. He managed to use this against Obama during the debate. He's not Joe the plumber, he's "+$250,000/yr Joe".
update update: Turns out that Joe Wurzelbacher (Joe the Plumber) from the Toledo event is a close relative of Robert Wurzelbacher of Milford, Ohio. Who’s Robert Wurzelbacher? Only Charles Keating’s son-in-law and the former senior vice president of American Continental, the parent company of the infamous Lincoln Savings and Loan. The now retired elder Wurzelbacher is also a major contributor to Republican causes giving well over $10,000 in the last few years.
and the question people have to ask themselves. As a good human being, is it appropriate to say,
"I don't care about most people, I don't care about my employees who are struggling. I don't even empathize having struggled myself for years.
What about me? I gotta get mine!"
Or is it more socially responsible to say,
"I AM getting mine, that's why I'm successful. I respect what it took to get here. I'm willing to pay my way only another 3% and only on whats above the line - so others can have the opportunities i have."
the irony is... if you forgo that tax cut, and allow the majority 95% of people more money and more spending power? That increase in spending will give your business more profit and customers by magnitudes more than the tax cut would have given you. It's an investment in sales.
BTW: Here is why McCain keeps bringing him up http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d0b_1224085171
People talk about the marginal tax rate all the time, but that doesn't give you the real picture. I'd like to see a qualified comparison of net tax rates for the different proposals.
*news
He keeps coming at it from the mentality of 'I put in the hard yards, I did it tough, I made sacrifices, why should I pay more money now?'
But he is SO FLAWED on so many points.
* MaxWilder's above... it's ONLY on the money above $250K and it's ONLY another 3% at that... you'll hardly even notice it you dick.
* He thinks that just because he got where he is then everyone else has to do it tough to get where they want to get. Can he not remember any time he wished he had a bit more money in his pocket when he didn't earn much?
* The country needs money to be able to make everything work, taxes are the way it's done, and it's only fair to stop taking as much from those who it actually hurts rather than those who really probably won't notice the extra money missing.
* 'That's not the American dream' - Oh fuck off. The American dream is not 'I got here, now I don't have to do shit to help anyone else'. The American dream is a fair go for everyone and the ability for anyone to make it good through hard work. The fact that he's about to buy a quarter of a million dollar business means he's doing ok for himself, he is not going to miss the extra 3% on the small sum of money he earns over $250K... The American dream means that everyone should pitch in a bit to help others so that everyone gets a fair shot at the dream, regardless of their economic background.
Selfish, self righteous bastard.
Things like this though, things like seeing Obama talk off the cuff like this shows me why I like him as a politician, he is courteous, knowledgeable, learned, and just frankly knows his stuff, and seems to know 'FAIR'... and that's what the USA needs at the head of the ship at the moment.
Now this is a guy I could have a beer with.
I hope you mean Obama, as I think Joe would just spend the whole time talking about how he built up HIS business with HIS hard work and how the government wants HIS fricken money man.
We also tend to think the bulk of the unemployed aren't unemployed by choice. They either got laid off, got injured, or had some other external event ruin their life.
There's probably a very small number of people who do mooch off the state, but we don't like them any more than you do.
We just don't assume everyone whose economic situation sucks is only in that position because they're lazy.
I can't write a long comment because I have to get up and go to work tomorrow, unlike most of the people here who believe that Joe should pay for those that don't want to help themselves. The irony is that the beer is on the working class. That's what bums spend their money on anyway....anything else would be responsible.
>> ^OriginalUsername:
Oh, and for those that believe Joe is selfish. Yeah, and those who don't do anything but sit at home, play dominoes, steal electricity and cable, and go pick up a check every two weeks aren't. We should give those selfless Americans more. After all, they're decreasing the demand for gasoline, therefore, putting country first! The lower class rules! Hey, let's get them a computer so they can see how awesome Obama is. Wait, they've probably already stolen one. Is that how you got on here?
Ahh, the right wing mantra "Why should we give money to lazy bums"?
It's a friggen cop out, you lot TRY to believe that it's really the case, that everyone but you and those who make stacks of money are just lazy... heck, even if you're getting disadvantaged by the current government because they're giving tax breaks to those who earn shiteloads more than you, you still bend over and take it because you believe that one day you'll make squillions of dollars.
The thing is... if you do start earning that kind of money... you wouldn't notice a 3% change in ONLY THE MONEY YOU EARN OVER $250K.
Everyone earning under $250K ARE NOT BUMS. You selfish, closed minded, ME ME ME dick. And how can those earning under $250K be getting this tax cut if they're not working to earn the money to get the tax cut in the first place? You make no sense.
You really are absolutely delusional, and I hope that you end up out of work and unsupported by family and then see how much you might be thankful for any kind of social security there may be... WHILE YOU'RE LOOKING FOR A JOB.
(And you know... not all of us are on the same timezone, so don't think that we're all staying up late because we don't have jobs... I have a full time job that supports me, my wife going through uni and my three kids thanks very much... )
My siblings and I were raised by a single mom who worked overtime every week to support us. We would spend many evenings at her office, while she tried to get work done. And we pulled together and did it so I'm not a Republican snob who has or comes from money. Those who scrub floors to make ends meet are special people who typically pass on amazing work ethic. I don't want someone else supporting me if I lose my job. I want and need to support myself and my family, and I'm willing to do that because I choose not to be a victim. The more we require of the government, the more the government requires of us. Too many people have enslaved themselves to their governments, with dramatic results.
You're railing against something that isn't even being put forth here. Obama is talking about his tax plan cutting taxes FOR THOSE WHO WORK. FOR THOSE WHO DON'T EARN MUCH. How is it in ANY way bad to be doing that? You're trying to suggest that this is all about those who don't/won't work, this is about fairly taxing people, and repeatedly giving tax cuts to those who don't need it is WRONG.
The irony is that the beer is on the working class. That's what bums spend their money on anyway....anything else would be responsible.
"Drinking is the curse of the working class"
vs.
"Working is the curse of the drinking class"
And you know... not all of us are on the same timezone, so don't think that we're all staying up late because we don't have jobs... I have a full time job that supports me, my wife going through uni and my three kids thanks very much...
Speak for yourself pal, I do all my sifting from a cardboard box in an alley next to a Starbucks where I use a stolen laptop and that delectable free Wi-fi to come online and promote Obama so I can get free stuff at the expense of hard-working fools like Joe the plumber.
Mr. OriginalUsername, it sounds like you have a lot in common with Obama, raised by a single parent, and believe in the value of work.
Regardless of what you believe about Democrats, we're not socialists. We don't think we need to have government seize the means of production, and make all salaries equal. We believe in encouraging the growth of business and prosperity by using tax money to build an infrastructure that business is conducted on.
Republicans demagogue about choking business with taxes, and maybe that was true 40 years ago, but it's not true today. Democrats aren't philosophically wed to growing government, and we won't shy away from killing programs that don't work, even if we're not shy about trying new ones.
Our goals are to get as many people working as possible, through improving education, healthcare, and our infrastructure (e.g. roads, networks, and energy).
I never assume Republicans are rich -- there aren't enough of those out there to ever win elections. Most of their supporters seem to misunderstand what the Democratic party is about these days.
I thought from the first moment he spoke that Joe was a shill, planted in the line to ask the question.
When I watched the debate, I thought McCain was acting pretty weird about Joe the Plumber, with Republican catch phrases like "spread the wealth" and what-all. He had a "gotcha" energy to him that I found unappealing at the time, off-center, off-balance.
Now I think I know why. That was a prepared bit, I'd bet a whole dollar on it. Joe was placed there to ask his question in front of the cameras. McCain must have thought he'd died and gone to heaven when Obama actually SAID "spread the wealth."
I would love for my supposition to be proven correct. News cycle being what it is, I'm counting on it.
PS Doesn't Joe look like that gay reporter that was planted in Bush's White House press corps? Bald head, strongly built....
* They already earn over $250K and so are selfish pricks who want to keep every last cent of their money even though they would hardly notice the difference.
OR
* They don't earn that much, and so would actually be better off under the scheme BUT are under the delusion that they too will one day be super rich, and when they are, well dangit, they want to keep every last cent for themselves.
They are the only two camps, both are selfish and wrong.
In order to cut taxes for the lower earners, they should try to cut spending and increase efficiency of their bloated government organisations rather penalising Joe even more for being good at his job.
Now get off your high horse. You're so emotional...
"I want my money man! Where's my money?!? Give me my money man!"
I just think it's really good of McCain to be the champion of the 250k plus folks... and present it to the american people... because we should feel bad for Joe... (Samuel is he name by the way but Samuel the pumber doesn't have the same ZING!) He might have to put off buying that buisness for a couple years (worst case) in the mean time he is living quite comfortably and enjoying an income FAR better than the majority of Americans...
By all means... lets just forget about all the people who are losing their jobs and unable to provide health coverage for families and their children... unable to meet their morgages... It's 'Joe' who has it rough...
http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/joe-plumber-more-joe-keating-family-
2)No, the American dream IS NOT getting rich so you can help others. It most certainly is getting rich so you can have a lavish lifestyle
3)Yes, it his HIS money, and he worked hard for it, so when he thinks that he's finally at a point were he can make his dreams a reality, he's gonna get shit on for it.
If I were that guy, and I knew what the hell "marginal" meant (he apparently did not") then I might not give so much of a shit.
4)I want to know where a top of the line middle-class home is only $140,000. Where I'm from, that's a pretty low-end house.
Interesting... he also doesn't have a licence to be a plumber... and yes... it is required in the county their buisness is located... It's an interesting article if your feeling bad for this fellow... By his own discription and excuse the pun his 'plan' to buy the buisness is more of a 'pipe dream' (ba dum bum) the moment...
I'll say it again... don't ask me if your running for president to feel bad for this guy...
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20081016/D93RONUO0.html
but like some people said here, under a graded system, i would LOVE to be on a higher tax rate. that would be sweet. and yes i would like my customers to be on lower rates so they give me the money instead of the government.
The original constitution/bill of rights says nothing about taxing income.
-maybe all of this should be deferred to the state level. what kind of connotations would that carry?
a real question/preponderance
But that wowed me.
This Joe guy is a fake and $250,000 is not rich.
And the vast majority of us make much less than $250,000 primarily because there are no jobs in this country because the fucking Republicans have been shipping them overseas by the boatload.
And the jobs that do exist are still being paid wages that were considered shabby even by the standards of the 1990's.
Bush gave the rich the biggest tax breaks in history - did it make our country richer, stronger, better?
Fucking wake up.
1)No, he's not greedy
Well, I never said he was greedy, I said he was selfish. I don't think it's greedy to want to earn a good living, to have nice things, to do well for yourself and your family, that's not greedy. BUT, not being happy to let some of the good fortune (yes, don't tell me it's all down to just 'good hard work', it isn't, it's always born out of your environment, your family, and other help you get on the way... you may well work your arse off and come from adversity, but don't try and say that given a different set of circumstances you couldn't be in the dumps) you've had be used to let even more people get that little bit more and therefore have MORE prosperous people around thereby having a BETTER economy all round and EVERYONE getting more money... I mean, come on, that IS selfish.
2)No, the American dream IS NOT getting rich so you can help others. It most certainly is getting rich so you can have a lavish lifestyle
Wow, what a lovely dream... a dream where it's every man for himself and f*ck anyone else... ahhh... beautiful. Surely the dream is a COUNTRY which makes it POSSIBLE for anyone to get your materialistic end goal? If so then those who can afford it, those who have made it to the top, who have that lifestyle, shouldn't they want others to be able to do that to? Oh, no, they don't? Why? Because then they can't feel as special... bah.
3)Yes, it his HIS money, and he worked hard for it, so when he thinks that he's finally at a point were he can make his dreams a reality, he's gonna get shit on for it.
If I were that guy, and I knew what the hell "marginal" meant (he apparently did not") then I might not give so much of a shit.
And if this is the case, if this is a guy going off the rails because he's misinformed about marginal tax rates then that shows one of the biggest problems in mainstream voters today... lack of bloody education. Going nuts over perceived injustices that DON'T EXIST... it happens in all countries, it happens here in Australia too... it's nuts. He will be taxed LESS on the money under $250K... *sigh*
4)I want to know where a top of the line middle-class home is only $140,000. Where I'm from, that's a pretty low-end house.
There's no way you can buy ANY house for that anywhere near me in the land of Oz...
Of course, I also find all of this amusing because our (Australian) top tax rate kicks in at $150K ($180K next year), and it's 45cents in the dollar. And I'm happy with that, because we've ended up with far better services for it.
>> ^nomino:
"Drinking is the curse of the working class"
vs.
"Working is the curse of the drinking class"
>> ^lucky760:
It came out today that Joe the Plumber isn't even registered to vote. Dunno how true that is, but it's hilarious nonetheless.
God damn, he's good. Even if you don't agree with Obama at all, you gotta admit that he is one cool customer when it comes to public speaking, especially when he's speaking off the cuff.
And I bet he would be a blast to have a beer with too.
Spoco2, Joe the plumber seemed to have a question that needed answering, and Obama answered it. I don't think he was being some greedy bastard, I think he didn't understand that it was a marginal tax increase above $250K. I know a lot of people here in Canada, where increases are not always marginal, often loathe having their income go up a small amount that takes them into the next tax bracket, because they end up making less money after taxes and would have been better off without the raise or promotion... that was probably Joe's concern.
Now get off your high horse. You're so emotional...
I'm thinking back to my T1 forms.
Aside from wealthy retirees getting nasty clawbacks on pensions and people escaping welfare only to get caught in that vicious little trap, which other non-margianl increases do you have in mind?
He REALLY hates taxes.
http://dontmesswithtaxes.typepad.com/dont_mess_with_taxes/2008/10/joe-the-plumb-1.html
Apparently he owes back taxes.
Inigo Montoya: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Also, paying for a $140,000 house would be completely trivial for anyone making $250,000 a year (at least $180,000 after taxes). That's $500 a day. He makes more in a day tha the combined monthly cost of rent,electricity, cable, etc combined, in Nebraska, and he calls his situation modest (LOL). A week long luxury cruise in the Caribbean costs well under a grand per person. He makes enough in one year to spend 4 years cruising in the Caribbean.
Eureka! Maybe Joe the Plumber picked up a $500 a day cocaine habit with his newfound wealth.
OR, perhaps he hasn't quite grasped the difference between revenue and profits, and how to deduct business expenses from his taxes.