Two wrongs don't make a right. Sifters should vote this one up just because we can.

*doublepromote

And impeach bush before he pardons the torturers.

Double-Promoting this video and sending it back into the queue for one more try; last queued Saturday, December 13th, 2008 7:44pm PST - doublepromote requested by jwray.

Feeding, Sheltering, and above all, Educating people... will actually solve all the problems in the world.

But only if you don't ask for anything in return... and therein lies the rub.

Impeach the real criminals like Bush.

It's too bad the "public schools" government indoctrination centers don't teach American history anymore. If they did you'd already know that Carter was one of the worst presidents ever.

Those who forget Carter are condemned to repeat him with Obama.

Former President Carter usually has a keen sense of which way the political winds are blowing.

>> ^quantumushroom:
It's too bad the "public schools" government indoctrination centers don't teach American history anymore. If they did you'd already know that Carter was one of the worst presidents ever.
Those who forget Carter are condemned to repeat him with Obama.


On noneconomic issues, Carter was the best president of the second half of the 20th century.

>> ^quantumushroom:
It's too bad the "public schools" government indoctrination centers don't teach American history anymore. If they did you'd already know that Carter was one of the worst presidents ever.
Those who forget Carter are condemned to repeat him with Obama.


I don't know much about carter, and I don't care to.

But neither do I trust Obama, I don't trust any politician any more. Even Paul, and Kucinich.

>> ^jwray:
>> ^quantumushroom:
It's too bad the "public schools" government indoctrination centers don't teach American history anymore. If they did you'd already know that Carter was one of the worst presidents ever.
Those who forget Carter are condemned to repeat him with Obama.

On noneconomic issues, Carter was the best president of the second half of the 20th century.


You just made that up in your head, didn't you? Haha you had me there for a sec

A man can be a poor president and still be a good human. Regardless of Jimmy Carter's flaws, he's absolutely right to say that torture can never be justified. Some of the army's own interrogators agree with him.

Regardless of Carter's legacy, of which I have no opinion, he speaks true here. I wonder if QM and CP420 have something intelligent to say about the content of this video, rather than spewing out ad homs against any stock republican hate object making his appearance?

Best approval message I've ever read for Carter's presidency is QM and CP420 saying he was lousy.

Folks you're looking at this whole torture thing the wrong way. It's just good ol' BDSM sex play, the victims just aren't being told that's what it is because the interrogators don't want to admit they are sexually excited by strapping men down and getting them all wet.

Seriously though, this entire fiasco has been a black eye for America, that will likely take decades to repair. A good start is to impeach those responsible, and try/court marshal everyone complicit, and send a message to the world that we do not tolerate these actions.

>> ^quantumushroom:
It's too bad the "public schools" government indoctrination centers don't teach American history anymore. If they did you'd already know that Carter was one of the worst presidents ever.
Those who forget Carter are condemned to repeat him with Obama.


carter was a terrible politician because he refused to play politics. on international issues carter was indeed the best president of the second of the 20th century. furthermore, this post is about current humanitarian issues, on which carter has been a profoundly successful leader. and third, "government indoctrination centers" have never taught history. in fact, the cirriculum was always designed from the start to teach patriotism, not actual knowledge. perhaps if they DID teach actual history, you would know that.

Do these Scamnesty folks expect people to feel sorry for the scum at Gitmo and elsewhere? These poor, poor fellows who take up arms against the West and act like savages, homicide-bombing and cutting off heads...are we to feel sorry they're now getting 3 squares a day?

Torture? At the end of a waterboarding session, the "victim" is still alive, isn't he? Unlike Daniel Pearl.

Whenever caught these brave jihadists suddenly want the civilized protection of international law, which when running loose they sought to destroy? Achmed, please.


If you don't know Carter's legacy, google around. His neverending spineless brown-nosing of soviet dictators emboldened that evil empire, which then invaded no less than seven countries. So go ahead, weigh the 'rights' of jihadists against innocents in those countries the commies invaded. I'd like to see the Amnesty candle-lighters do a vigil for the 100 million+ murdered worldwide by communists.

It's not torture than can never be justified but the failed presidency of James Carter. And half the country just proved how much they don't know by electing more of the same fail.

yeah the next 8 years of peace, prosperity, and visionary leadership are really gonna be tough to take. I was so looking forward to careening over the cliff that the neocon worldview has led us to post-Carter.

>> ^Memorare:
yeah the next 8 years of peace, prosperity, and visionary leadership



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA thanks for that, I needed a good laugh to brighten my day

Is it just me, or has BillO lost some of his power now that he doesn't have a more famous avatar?

Back on topic: I love peanuts.

>> ^peggedbea:
>> ^quantumushroom:
It's too bad the "public schools" government indoctrination centers don't teach American history anymore. If they did you'd already know that Carter was one of the worst presidents ever.
Those who forget Carter are condemned to repeat him with Obama.

carter was a terrible politician because he refused to play politics. on international issues carter was indeed the best president of the second of the 20th century. furthermore, this post is about current humanitarian issues, on which carter has been a profoundly successful leader. and third, "government indoctrination centers" have never taught history. in fact, the cirriculum was always designed from the start to teach patriotism, not actual knowledge. perhaps if they DID teach actual history, you would know that.


Really? So Carter's funding of the Mujahideen in Afghanistan/Pakistan was an example of America's best international work? Most of the lefties have condemned that as the worst thing America has done, the strongest Bush haters even try to liken it to creating Al-Qaeda. Doesn't wash so well with them when they realize it was Carter at the helm back then though. But if you wanna pat him on the back for it, I guess that's up to you.

That aside, he's dead to rights on torture, I just don't feel any need to praise someone for saying something so bloody obvious.

*humanitarian

Adding video to channels (Humanitarian) - requested by xxovercastxx.

>> ^quantumushroom:
It's too bad the "public schools" government indoctrination centers don't teach American history anymore. If they did you'd already know that Carter was one of the worst presidents ever.
Those who forget Carter are condemned to repeat him with Obama.


Carter's presidency has nothing to do with statements made here. Despite the legacy of his presidency he has gone on to do excellent work in humanitarian projects all over the world. Claiming every Democrat has been wrong on every statement or decision they've ever made makes you look terribly stupid.

Let me make an example using Bush Jr. He's easily the worst president of my lifetime and quite possibly the worst ever, but I can still say he's done great things with PEPFAR.

If we had footage of Clinton stating "two and two is four", I get the feeling you'd try to pretend it wasn't. You'd probably work some stupid pun like "Shill Clinton" in there, too.

Grow up already.

>> ^xxovercastxx:
>> ^quantumushroom:
It's too bad the "public schools" government indoctrination centers don't teach American history anymore. If they did you'd already know that Carter was one of the worst presidents ever.
Those who forget Carter are condemned to repeat him with Obama.

Carter's presidency has nothing to do with statements made here. Despite the legacy of his presidency he has gone on to do excellent work in humanitarian projects all over the world. Claiming every Democrat has been wrong on every statement or decision they've ever made makes you look terribly stupid.
Let me make an example using Bush Jr. He's easily the worst president of my lifetime and quite possibly the worst ever, but I can still say he's done great things with PEPFAR.
If we had footage of Clinton stating "two and two is four", I get the feeling you'd try to pretend it wasn't. You'd probably work some stupid pun like "Shill Clinton" in there, too.
Grow up already.


Actually I think educated people dislike Carter because he was a terrible president, had no backbone, is now old and senile, and generally muddies up international affairs he has no business in.

The Republican Party is hypocritically teaching an-eye-for-an-eye and escalation of the cycle of violence while wrapping itself in Jesus Christ who taught exactly the opposite.

Torture = giving terrorists a reason to hate the USA

It is never justified under any circumstances whatsoever. It produces false confessions more often than anything useful. It has very little short-term tactical use, and any such benefit, if it exists, is outweighed by the long-term detriment. From a long term strategic view, torture is useless, in addition to its heinous immorality. The long term detriment comes from the fact that employing torture leads towards other countries hating the torturer, as well as enemies adopting the practice in retaliation.

If you want to see how ineffective torture is as an interrogation tool, just study the history of witch hunts and witch trials.

If you want to stop terrorism, you have to understand the terrorist, and rather than making them into fictional dehumanized archetypes of evil.

The overwhelming majority of people who were ever "detained" as alleged "enemy combatants" were quietly acquitted of all charges and released. You can NOT operate on the assumption that all detainees are terrorists. And even if they were, torture is not justifiable.

>> ^quantumushroom:
Do these Scamnesty folks expect people to feel sorry for the scum at Gitmo and elsewhere? These poor, poor fellows who take up arms against the West and act like savages, homicide-bombing and cutting off heads...are we to feel sorry they're now getting 3 squares a day?
Torture? At the end of a waterboarding session, the "victim" is still alive, isn't he? Unlike Daniel Pearl.

American terrorism is so nice and clinical because of precision guiding bombing runs, arms sales to oppressive states, and "he's a son of a bitch but our son of a bitch" international policy.

If the CIA hadn't deposed Mossadeq for oil in 1954, we could have had a modern secular liberal ally in Iran today. The entire Iranian Revolution was a reaction against the butal dictatorship set up by the USA as a replacement for Mossadeq the liberal democrat, and old time religion was a convenient thing for that revolution to rally around. There are tons of Iranian exile diaspora, whose necessary flight during that revolution has made Iran a much less liberal, less secular, and less democratic place. If only Mossadeq had been left in place, the reasonable Iranians would have had a popular democratic incumbancy to rally around and the bloody theocratic revolution probably never would have happened.

End the Cuban embargo for fuck's sake. If there's enough trade between two countries, economic necessity prevents them from warring. No country that size would ever in their right mind attack the USA besides. If politicians really wanted Cuba to assimilate into capitalist orthodoxy, they would drop the trade embargo to promote cultural diffusion. But they keep the old hatreds alive so that they can have a useful boogeyman to point to when they want to scare the people into supporting some demagoguery. I suspect that's also why the Pentagon ordered the elite unit that nearly had Bin Laden in their crosshairs to hold the attack plans (as was reported on 60 minutes recently).

The USA's involvement with Pinochet was also inexcusable.

Jimmy Carter's comments on torture only apply when the torture refers to his Presidency, his politics, and his opinions.

Carter's presidency has nothing to do with statements made here.

When the messenger has done more harm than good, he deserves to be called out. Also, Carter violated the unwritten code that ex-presidents do not speak against sitting presidents. Make no mistake, Carter was/is the greater of two evils between Bush and himself.

Despite the legacy of his presidency he has gone on to do excellent work in humanitarian projects all over the world.

That doesn't excuse the damage Carter did any more than Clinton's painting a house erases his failure to defend our missile tech from Chinese spies.

Claiming every Democrat has been wrong on every statement or decision they've ever made makes you look terribly stupid.

Then it's a good thing YOU said it and not me.

FDR's New Deal - expensive unconstitutional failure, prolonged the Depression, still paying for it today

LBJ's Great Society/War on Poverty - expensive unconstitutional failure, still paying for it today

Obama Tax Raising Socialism- expensive unconstitutional failure-in-waiting,; it don't take a rocket surgeon to predict the coming belly flop from his Highness.

Let me make an example using Bush Jr. He's easily the worst president of my lifetime and quite possibly the worst ever, but I can still say he's done great things with PEPFAR.

Well, that's your opinion about Bush, based on whatever criteria you're using. I have plenty of harsh words for the Bush Presidency but disagree he's the worst. As for our lifetimes, they're still going along. Don't cash in your survey just yet!


If we had footage of Clinton stating "two and two is four", I get the feeling you'd try to pretend it wasn't. You'd probably work some stupid pun like "Shill Clinton" in there, too.

"Shill Clinton" isn't as good as Shrillary but WTF, he's an alleged rapist as well as abuser of women. He and his wife's crime syndicate needs to disappear.

Grow up already.

The adult view is that torture is sometimes necessary. The Gitmo scum aren't enemy soldiers or combatants fighting under an organized army's flag, which means no protection for them under the Geneva Conventions.

Why does the side with no morality in their daily conduct suddenly want the moral high ground on the issue of torture?

OMG Jimmy Carr looks awful!

Why does the side with no morality in their daily conduct suddenly want the moral high ground on the issue of torture?


Why should any American want their government to LOSE that high ground?

quantumushroom is so cute when he goes after democrats as if republicans haven't done the same or worse when in power

>> ^Farhad2000:
quantumushroom is so cute when he goes after democrats as if republicans haven't done the same or worse when in power


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2008/1598457402_a6bd1f1142.jpg

>> ^quantumushroom:
The adult view is that torture is sometimes necessary. The Gitmo scum aren't enemy soldiers or combatants fighting under an organized army's flag, which means no protection for them under the Geneva Conventions.

And what about principles and ideals? What about being above such barbaric acts? You seem to be saying we should match our enemies' crudity blow by blow; a tactic, I'll point out, that will only further validate their actions to them.

Back to something resembling my original topic; I wonder if you'd tell us who you think was a great president? In fact, let's make it more interesting...

- Greatest President of your lifetime and why you believe such.
- Greatest President of all time and why you believe such.
- A liberal or progressive President whom you admire.

Your questions are important and it's right and good that you should ask them. My answers are deficient but sincere.

And what about principles and ideals? What about being above such barbaric acts?

There are times--mercifully few--where principles and ideas are suspended and barbarity is the order of the day. Survival is literally bestowed to the strongest, the side more determined to prevail.

Sitting in (hopefully) comfortable chairs, discussing things online is a luxury afforded us because other men and women are guarding the gates. When the bullets run out, they go to bayonets. We have forgotten the price of freedom.

You seem to be saying we should match our enemies' crudity blow by blow; a tactic, I'll point out, that will only further validate their actions to them.

You're making a dangerous assumption that this enemy thinks as we do. They do not. Nowhere in the caves are jihadists arguing that if they use homicide bombers on their own people and murder journalists the West will retaliate in kind.

Jihadists can't be reasoned with...to provoke a war with any country that could level them is suicidal. Had a country claimed credit for 9-11, that country would no longer exist. Yet that's what they've done. Insanity.

If you were to give jihadists a block of their own land with the exact same resources as another group, they would find reasons to attack the other group. You would have better luck asking a rabid dog not to bite anyone than you would convincing these folks they're wrong.

Despite the fact they leave us no choice but to destroy them utterly, the West has shown remarkable restraint. There is no comparison between what they do and what we have done.

It's all rather pointless to debate because sooner or later New York will be Nuked York. I can't even say we'll respond with the proper fury then.


Back to something resembling my original topic; I wonder if you'd tell us who you think was a great president? In fact, let's make it more interesting...

- Greatest President of your lifetime and why you believe such.

Reagan. The only President on either side who believed government worked for the people, not the other way around. Everyone, including the poor, was better off when the tax rates were slashed.

- Greatest President of all time and why you believe such.

Every President faces different crises and was a product of his age. Also, it's hard to compare war Presidents with others. Washington deserves the most props.

- A liberal or progressive President whom you admire.

JFK, but the answer is somewhat of a copout, because he wasn't in office for long.

It is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high and tax revenues are too low and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now ... Cutting taxes now is not to incur a budget deficit, but to achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy which can bring a budget surplus."

– John F. Kennedy, Nov. 20, 1962, president's news conference

"Lower rates of taxation will stimulate economic activity and so raise the levels of personal and corporate income as to yield within a few years an increased – not a reduced – flow of revenues to the federal government."

May I remind you that liberals can choose from almost any president on either side of the aisle for the last 50 years. With the exception of Reagan (where A Dem Congress did the expansion) all of them have expanded government beyond its intended scope and purpose. For crying out loud, Nixon created the EPA!