Dammit, that first guy makes me want to puke.

Good video... the first guy pissed me off.. I have to however say that I have also been on the receiving end of prejudice from several muslims, christians, hindu, jews, buddhists, satanists and unknown religious adherences from all races and colors of ppl. This is but one reason why I consider myself an agnostic.

This type of selective behavior knows no bounds of race and creed unfortunately.

There is good and bad everywhere.

I have a great friend from Pakistan who's not even Muslim, living in the States. He's agnostic. But that doesn't stop bigots from profiling him, cops harassing him, and rednecks threatening him. Incredible Ignorance.

It's so sad and disgusting that people as ignorant as the first two guys even exist and are allowed to procreate. I'm totally in love with the girl in purple at the end though, she's incredible.

This was a lot more positive than I thought it would be. I figured it was going to be a straight showcase of the ignorant. Thank goodness there were also examples of the kinds of folks who speak up here on VS and other places.

What a ridiculous and meaningless social experiment.

^ The people involved didn't think it was meaningless, nor do most people who've seen the video here.

Methinks that means you should give an argument.

>> ^Tofumar:
^ The people involved didn't think it was meaningless, nor do most people who've seen the video here.
Methinks that means you should give an argument.


hear, hear! Let's start with what would have made that a meaningFUL experiment to you, Pprt...
I appreciated it, myself. I hope a lot of people overseas who have never been to the U.S. and who have pre-conceived notions about the population in general here watch this.

I felt just as disgusted as the rest of you at the senseless racism and bigotry shown at the beginning. But I'm also troubled by that style of reporting. Of course we were outraged, that was the whole point of the report. A perfect example of this trend is Dateline NBC, it's nothing but outrage mongering. Three times a week you're shown that all repairmen will screw you, that your grandparents will be swindled by fast talking conmen, that everyone is a theif given the right opportunity and that your children will be molested by the internet.

Those are all important topics, and there are real concerns behind them. But the way they're reported is designed to entertain and enrage. And never seems to focus on useful statistics, or the efforts being made to address the problem. Also, the sheer ammount of fucking with strangers against their will seems unethical. Serously, no need to make teenage girls cry with your staged confrontations.

On the other hand it was really nice to see ordinary people defending a muslim woman. But I still don't like the minipulative and unscientific nature of these real life experements.

Till the day I die, I'll never understand the "If you're not with me, then you're against me" attitude. It shows the lack of intelligence and inability to see that (oh my god!) there could be a third option, or a fourth, or fifth.

Another thing that I've always been curious about is this: All anger springs from fear. So what is this guy afraid of?

>> ^videosiftbannedme:
Till the day I die, I'll never understand the "If you're not with me, then you're against me" attitude. It shows the lack of intelligence and inability to see that (oh my god!) there could be a third option, or a fourth, or fifth.
Another thing that I've always been curious about is this: All anger springs fear. So what is this guy afraid of?


and don't forget, fear is the path to the dark side!

are you crying? There's no CRYING in racism!!!

Religionfags...

racism sucks!!
this is a Great post!

Ok this is just an observation and I dont condone anything here but i found it interesting that videos like Pat Condell where he talks about how Europe (Britain especially) has rolled over to Islam and lets them get away with anything. The comments on those videos are full of frustration and the unfairness of it showing that even though he is probably exaggerating he is hitting on a real problem on many Britons minds. Now a video showing the opposite in America where they have gone extreme in the other direction of being racist gets the reaction of how much more open minded America must be (like Britain maybe) to accept Muslims completely and so on. Like I said i dont agree with racism, especially in this video, i just thought it was interesting how both countries get populace who disagree with how they handle it. Guess somewhere in the middle is the right way, hope we get there someday.

Jordass, If you've watched Pat Condell, you'd understand he isn't talking about treating Muslims fairly and equally, he's talking about appeasement towards the aggressive Muslim forces.

man thats just awful

I put off watching this because I was affraid it was going to be another one of those videos that makes my stomach knot up and make me want to hide in a dark hole. My favorite thing about America is that it is a huge melting pot of everyone (seemingly) under the sun. I've been driven mad by those whom spew that white christian=American.

I have to agree with entr0py on the style of reporting. As should be appearant TV news programs are designed to keep people in their seats so they can watch the commercials and earn the revenue. It only follows that they'd take to sensationalizing or fearing the populus into staying tuned, for the betterment or degradation of it's viewers.

Very true rottenseed, good call

I usually dislike the contrived 'social experiments' the new magazine programs are always showing, this one was an exception. There was something positive to take from this, thanks for sharing it Farhad.

Ditto swampgirl. I was surprised by the different reactions, and especially troubled by those who said nothing. In my America, the way I would like things to be, there may be a few bigots but they would get put in their place by those around them. But what's really telling here, you can tell that the bigots know they are wrong because they run away from the reporter.

I was very pleased to see them show a sampling of all the different reactions they got and give #'s of how many acted in each way. It actually covered the spectrum and gave you an idea of how all the reactions we didn't see went. The trend does seem to be for them to only focus on negative reactions and not give much in the way of numbers or better idea of the overall picture.

Is this worse than how Muslim men treat their own women? How Christians and Jews fare in majority Muslim lands?

Which is more horrible, Islamic "honor killings" and female mutilation or a refusal to be served?

Islamic law and its backwards ways are incompatible with the laws and culture of a free, democratic society. I have seen no evidence of "moderate" Muslims adapting and assimilating within any Western nation, just news footage of European neighborhoods burning.

I refuse to pretend Islamic ways are anything but inferior to the American way of life. It has nothing to do with "racism" and everything to do with values. Wherever Muslims arrive in the West they do so brimming with confrontation, obstinance and outrageous demands that the majority culture accommodate them, while every other ethnic and religious group in America adapts, assimilates and prospers to the extent they ignore leftists' you're-a-victim propaganda.

Farhad and others, I respect your right to live your life and worship as you see fit. Unfortunately Muslim leaders and too many followers do not wish the same for those outside of Islam.

To clarify, the individuals subject to scrutiny were placed into an completely artificial environment where the desired outcome of their behaviour was decidedly engineered. I have no doubt that the clerk actively incited participation from bystanders.

Compare this to an Asch paradigm where the control doesn't exist and the ratio matches up perfectly.

To claim that this is "How Muslims Are Treated In [sic] USA" is patently ludicrous. The only fair assessment would be a hidden camera tracking a hijab-clad woman going about daily tasks.

It seems that the fact that all we saw was a well-rehearsed performance by professional actors went over everyone's head. If there's one thing people can't get enough of it's righteous indignation.

This is in response to QM,

I live in the Islamic state of Kuwait, the second largest religious denomination here is Christians. In fact in most countries in the Middle East it is always the second largest religious block.

Muslims have no problem with Jews, they have a problem with Zionists, which is a totally different thing and relates to the continuous oppression of Palestinian people. There are many Jews who live in peace in that most feared state of Iran, something that dispels the common held misconception that Iran wants to 'wipe' Israel away. The differences are political not religious.

Islamic ways are not backward and are totally compatible with Democracy, which thrives in Kuwait, Turkey, Indonesia and other nations (I exclude most Middle East nations since they are monarchies, like that closest ally to the US called Saudi Arabia from where most of 9/11 hijackers hail).

The reasoning that Muslims are burning up Europe is a fallacious lie, that problem has to do with how Europeans are dealing with immigrants rather then a specific religious block. In France the lashings out are because the French discriminate against the Algerians and those not of their ilk. Hundreds of thousands live in peace in countries like the US, Canada, UK, Netherlands, Sweden and others. But its too often political opportunistic to blame the immigrants arriving, and fear monger about Muslim threat in order to gain political power. This is the same way many dictators assume emergency powers in countless times across history.

To terrorists the Islamic religion is but a political tool of mobilization, whose teachings they mangle into their own belief of killing westerners, its a desecration for nowhere in the Koran is it allowed to kill civilians, commit terrorist acts or wage a guerrilla war. The highest ruling in the Koran is to seek peace over confrontation and war.

Muhammad's own life was one of conquering the 'infidels' throughout the Arabian peninsula. He probably invented Islam as a way of manipulating people to follow him and help his ambitions as a conqueror, and as a way of attracting more wives. I have no problem with people who happened to be raised as Muslims, but the religion itself is bullshit and the world would be better off if it didn't exist. The Koran contains dozens of verses that could reasonably be interpreted as commandments to kill infidels, even though most muslims don't subscribe to those interpretations.

How about you actually read about Muhammad's life before saying something that is wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad

Farhad, it seems you don't follow the news in the west enough if you think "(The reasons) Muslims are burning up Europe ... has to do with how Europeans are dealing with immigrants."

Here are some enlightening links:

http://islamineurope.blogspot.com/
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/
http://www.islamisation.fr/
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=35

See a constant here?

I don't see too many Japanese raping Norwegian women or partaking in urban warfare with their host countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_as_a_general
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Khaybar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mu%27tah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tabouk
second paragraph of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Trench

Jesus never led an army or commanded his followers to kill anyone. Muhammad did both. And it wasn't all self-defense. The some of the stories justifying Muhammad's conquests as self-defense are just as suspect as the alleged "resurrection" of Jesus. Jesus, if he existed at all and the Jefferson Bible reflects him, lived by his word of "love your enemies" and "turn the other cheek" (except evicting the merchants from the temple, but nobody got hurt), while Muhammad used violence in defense and other objectives. All religious scriptures are based primarily on fantasy, but at least the character of Jesus didn't kill anybody (unlike his later followers)

Of course, I'm not defending the douchebaggery of the clerk in the video.

jwray, you are an idiot. There's been alot more killing in the name of Christ than there's ever been in the name of Allah. Calling Islam "bullshit" is soooo fucking ignorant, as if Christianity is any better, if not alot worse.

I don't judge people by their religious beliefs, but by their actions. And those can be good OR bad no matter what religion they follow.

The important distinction campionidelmondo is that this is 2008, and no-one is killing in the name of Christianity. The Crusades and Christian Emperialism ended quite some time ago.

The Muslim world's drive, however, is still fueled by the ideology of a 6th century sectarian battalion. Islam never had a Renaissance... never had the period of self-doubt and introspection that Europe went through... this may be in part because just question Koranic validity is punishable by death!

Cheers to jwray for going against the grain.

as a psych graduate who is begining an MSc in social research methods next semester, i wouldn't even call this an experiment or anything even remotely resembling good science. the methodology is.. pretty much non existant. i don't even know what sort of experimental design they're trying to use here. at best i think all this does is provide good examples of pseudoscience, poor critical thinknig and use of rhetorical devices in argument.

i think journalism like this can be as harmful as religious fundamentalism.

+1 pipp3355

-11 on my original comment for pointing it out

why does the last guy tell the MUSLIM woman "God go with you."?!?!?!?!?!

>> ^rottenseed:
are you crying? There's no CRYING in racism!!!


Wow, I didn't know we had so many "A League of Their Own" fans.

>> ^pipp3355:
i think journalism like this can be as harmful as religious fundamentalism.


Yeah, let's just be quiet about the racism that's going on and act as if everything is ok. Good idea pipp!

>> ^campionidelmondo:
jwray, you are an idiot. There's been alot more killing in the name of Christ than there's ever been in the name of Allah. Calling Islam "bullshit" is soooo fucking ignorant, as if Christianity is any better, if not alot worse.
I don't judge people by their religious beliefs, but by their actions. And those can be good OR bad no matter what religion they follow.


I am NOT saying christianity is any better and I am NOT denying that a lot of people have been killed in the name of christianity. Christianity is also superstitious bullshit. However the historical figure of Jesus, if he existed and the Jefferson bible reflects him at all, was a better person than Muhammad because he actually practiced what he preached regarding peacefulness (unlike Muhammad). Every religion is based on fantasy. Muhammad, the hypocrite, said Allah is most merciful, but approved the killing of all the men of the Banu Qarayza who would not convert, and enslaving all their women and children.

Yeah, let's just be quiet about the racism that's going on and act as if everything is ok. Good idea pipp!


The clerk and Muslima were paid actors... the discrimination (Muslim is a race now?) in that video was a staged performance!

There are moderate Islamic countries that are fully engaged in the global culture/economy and doing, interesting, things. Islamic science also played a valuable part in the history of science.

Encouraging subcultures that are aligned with what we value most might always be more effective than being able to be accused of opposing an entire culture

^ >>Islamic science also played a valuable part in the history of science.
but not any more!

Islamic science is the same as Christian science; bullshit.

Tags for this video have been changed from 'ABC primetime, mooslem, religous, relations, america, prejudice' to 'ABC primetime, mooslem, religous, relations, america, prejudice, Muslim' - edited by E_Nygma

>> ^Pprt:
To clarify, the individuals subject to scrutiny were placed into an completely artificial environment where the desired outcome of their behaviour was decidedly engineered. I have no doubt that the clerk actively incited participation from bystanders.

^ of course he did, however...I would point out that the customers' reactions were not necessarily engineered. For example, I don't care how artificial of an environment I am in, I will still act like myself.


Compare this to an Asch paradigm where the control doesn't exist and the ratio matches up perfectly.


To claim that this is "How Muslims Are Treated In [sic] USA" is patently ludicrous. The only fair assessment would be a hidden camera tracking a hijab-clad woman going about daily tasks.

^ I don't think anyone here claimed this was an awesome scientific/social experiment. Entertaining demonstration/exhibition of various reactions to the "elephant in the room" is what is inherent.

It seems that the fact that all we saw was a well-rehearsed performance by professional actors went over everyone's head. If there's one thing people can't get enough of it's righteous indignation.

^again, I will say that the customers do not appear to be actors, and I don't think that anyone here missed the fact that the woman and the clerk WERE actors. Your suggestion that a fair assesment would be a hidden camera tracking a hijab-clad woman going about daily tasks is excellent should anyone wish to follow through with a scientific experiment. I believe for some reason that this was never meant to be passed off as such, and rather more of what I stated above.

You really seem to not know about the intricate nature of the issues you raise about muslim intergration within Europe. Furthermore picking a few anti-Islamic, anti-Immigration, pro-conservative websites doesn't give the issue fair light.

This BBC News report shows the issue in better light. Also this MSNBC interactive site, the common words being mentioned is poverty, alienation, discrimination and integration problems.

The issue isn't so much religion in Europe it's social reactionism against immigration, using the Islamic religion as a scape goat to increase anti-immigration sentiment. Tell me the last time someone put the issue in favourble light in the last 7 years post 9/11 and the whole radical Islam scare, before 9/11 we could look at terrorism as simply that but now we couple it with the Islamic faith.

Islam being a religion of war? Please. If Islam was a religion of war you'd be screwed then because you know its the single largest religious denomination now in the world? But for some reason all these ideas only exist in your fantasies.

Am sick and tired of this hypocrisy with regards to claiming Islam a religion of war, you connect anything a Muslim person does to his religion, I bet if a Muslim kills an American tomorrow it won't be that one person killed another but will be reported as "Muslim Slays American".

Think of it this way from the same perspective "Christian President Declares War on Islamic Nations of Afghanistan and Iraq". There we go again. Its the myth of clash of civilizations. Go back to 1999, no one gave a shit about Islam, now post 9/11 and the media drive everyone has become a buck shot specialist on the 'threat' of Islam.

I see only 2 examples... they had the equipment and the actor.. and these 2 stores are the only ones they found?

Im sure crap like this
http://www.videosift.com/video/OMG-bout-time-50-cents-video-game-got-a-sequel
only helps spread the message of tolerance and understanding.

>> ^laura:
>> ^Pprt:
To clarify, the individuals subject to scrutiny were placed into an completely artificial environment where the desired outcome of their behaviour was decidedly engineered. I have no doubt that the clerk actively incited participation from bystanders.
^ of course he did, however...I would point out that the customers' reactions were not necessarily engineered. For example, I don't care how artificial of an environment I am in, I will still act like myself.

Compare this to an Asch paradigm where the control doesn't exist and the ratio matches up perfectly.

To claim that this is "How Muslims Are Treated In [sic] USA" is patently ludicrous. The only fair assessment would be a hidden camera tracking a hijab-clad woman going about daily tasks.
^ I don't think anyone here claimed this was an awesome scientific/social experiment. Entertaining demonstration/exhibition of various reactions to the "elephant in the room" is what is inherent.
It seems that the fact that all we saw was a well-rehearsed performance by professional actors went over everyone's head. If there's one thing people can't get enough of it's righteous indignation.

^again, I will say that the customers do not appear to be actors, and I don't think that anyone here missed the fact that the woman and the clerk WERE actors. Your suggestion that a fair assesment would be a hidden camera tracking a hijab-clad woman going about daily tasks is excellent should anyone wish to follow through with a scientific experiment. I believe for some reason that this was never meant to be passed off as such, and rather more of what I stated above.


The customers were indeed subjects, and social behaviour is indeed defined by one's company.

My offense is that this is certainly not an accurate depiction of "How Muslims Are Treated In The USA" (by the way, thank you for editing the title Farhad2000).

Muslims are free to practicce their faith, minarets dot the landscapes of Washington and many American cities, laws were enacted prohibiting discriminatory practices and Muslims currently enjoy a priviledged status regarding their religion in the public space.

Farhad2000, that debate is entirely unrelated to the video posting and its reticulum is far too wide for superficial rebuttal... I'm not sure it's proper to broach such complex matter considering the raison d'etre of this video posting. Suffice to say that if you are suggesting Islam is devoid of militarism you either ill-informed, oblivious or a seasoned Taqqiya expert.

In my esteem, any religion that encompasses a penal code (jurisprudence), financial regulations, actively censures opposition, legiferates all spheres of life (public and private) must be judged in toto as a political entity as well as a faith. As such, the drive of maintaining a parallel political system for a certain strata of society is indeed indicative of a "threat" to many Western nations.

Ignorance and passiveness were and still are the biggest problems of mankind. Its fucking awesome to see people who actually intervene.

Just a little FYI. This bakery is located in West, Texas off Interstate 35. It's about 40 miles north of Crawford.

I agree the piece would have been much more powerful (and somewhat more scientific) if it had been a hidden camera on an average Muslim in America. However, the video as is still is quite telling about the level of ignorance and intolerance here. I don't approve of this style of journalism in general (because it's lazy and inflammatory), but I would love to hear some justification as to why this particular video is harmful. As far as I can tell, it would only be harmful if it was completely staged with 100% actors and slanted against the reality of our society. It does not appear to be any of those things.

I think this story was fairly balanced, as these things go. Anyone can edit footage to tell the story they want. They made it clear that there isn't one simple story (which is almost always the case).

I figured it would be like "Jay walking" where Jay Leno edits out 99% of the respondents to find the dumbest 1%

>> ^MaxWilder:
...I would love to hear some justification as to why this particular video is harmful...


Would you say this is "How Muslims Are Treated In The USA"?

Imagine if a naive Muslim chances upon this page. Do you think the title may be misleading?

Would you say this is "How Muslims Are Treated In The USA"?
Imagine if a naive Muslim chances upon this page. Do you think the title may be misleading?


The title is a bit misleading, because it doesn't indicate that this is a contrived situation. More of a social experiment. But anyway, that's not a criticism of the video segment, that's a criticism of who-ever posted it to sift.

>> ^rychan:

Would you say this is "How Muslims Are Treated In The USA"?
Imagine if a naive Muslim chances upon this page. Do you think the title may be misleading?

The title is a bit misleading, because it doesn't indicate that this is a contrived situation. More of a social experiment. But anyway, that's not a criticism of the video segment, that's a criticism of who-ever posted it to sift.


Very fair. The chosen title is in bad taste.

See comments about this video by Muslims, they've been as misled as most of you.

I also discovered that Dateline also employs provocateur tactics. link to another questionable "investigation"

Yes, a better title would be "How bystanders respond to prejudice against Muslims". Poorly titled, but not really harmful.

I live in the Islamic state of Kuwait, the second largest religious denomination here is Christians. In fact in most countries in the Middle East it is always the second largest religious block.

Some things good, others not as good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Kuwait

Muslims have no problem with Jews, they have a problem with Zionists, which is a totally different thing and relates to the continuous oppression of Palestinian people. There are many Jews who live in peace in that most feared state of Iran, something that dispels the common held misconception that Iran wants to 'wipe' Israel away. The differences are political not religious.

It would take a whole book to discuss either side of this argument; for this particular sift, the focus was on Muslims in the United States. Even from the above wiki link I see that once again, there is more religious freedom and tolerance in the US than elsewhere.

Islamic ways are not backward and are totally compatible with Democracy, which thrives in Kuwait, Turkey, Indonesia and other nations (I exclude most Middle East nations since they are monarchies, like that closest ally to the US called Saudi Arabia from where most of 9/11 hijackers hail).

To clarify: living as Muslim is possible most anywhere, but Sharia law as interpreted appears incompatible with Western republics.

The reasoning that Muslims are burning up Europe is a fallacious lie, that problem has to do with how Europeans are dealing with immigrants rather then a specific religious block...

In the age of Poisonous Correctness, it's very difficult for power-seekers to villify any group except the largest or most successful. The evidence leans more to the argument of Muslim non-assmilation than resistance on the part of the majority, who have the option of curtailing immigration.

To terrorists the Islamic religion is but a political tool of mobilization, whose teachings they mangle into their own belief of killing westerners, its a desecration for nowhere in the Koran is it allowed to kill civilians, commit terrorist acts or wage a guerrilla war. The highest ruling in the Koran is to seek peace over confrontation and war.

A hopeful argument, but if a few dozen terrorists killed thousands in the name of Christ, the worldwide condemnation from Christian majorities would be swift and loud. There is no equivalent singular voice from the world's one billion + Muslims.

>> ^MaxWilder:
I agree the piece would have been much more powerful (and somewhat more scientific) if it had been a hidden camera on an average Muslim in America. However, the video as is still is quite telling about the level of ignorance and intolerance here. I don't approve of this style of journalism in general (because it's lazy and inflammatory), but I would love to hear some justification as to why this particular video is harmful. As far as I can tell, it would only be harmful if it was completely staged with 100% actors and slanted against the reality of our society. It does not appear to be any of those things.


Hi Max,

Unfortunately I'm not sufficiently motivated to provide a detailed account of how I conclude that this sort of journalism is unhelpful and dangerous. But the short version of my argument is that people who are unfamiliar with social psychology could be wrongly persuaded by this video that this is an example of How Muslims Are Treated In The USA.

In fact, I think the grouping of 'muslim' and 'American' in this video is arbitrary and the same effect could be produced if all of these people were grouped in any way where there are similar antecedent conditions (e.g. salient normalcy between members). To my mind, a more parsimonious explanation of what we're really seeing at work here is random blend of social cognitive phenomena. For example, I think the participant's reactions could be reliability predicted as a function of personality which would have nothing to do with the in/out group distinction.

Here is a much more detailed account of what I am talking about: http://ourcomments.org/psych/GroupthinkII-realFinalADvances-1.pdf

>> ^quantumushroom:
A hopeful argument, but if a few dozen terrorists killed thousands in the name of Christ, the worldwide condemnation from Christian majorities would be swift and loud. There is no equivalent singular voice from the world's one billion + Muslims.


Erm, last time i checked, so-called "christians" voted a few dozen terrorists into the whitehouse and millions died.

an even better title would have been "laughable acting and the people too stupid to realize it"

Discrimination on all counts is offensive and full on stupid. But this "experiment" was fucking retarded. It was cool to see how forward some of the patrons were with the clerk but beyond that the ludicrous acting ruined any shred of credibility in this "experiment"

This happened in Texas? Go fucking figure =P

If it were me about 20 seconds into it I'd be asking where the Trigger Happy TV cameras are

Very interesting watching this again. *promote the *fear. or stupidity.

I had a great experience meeting Farhad tonight and we had some interesting conversations as well - even if he is a terrorist

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