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fundamentalist,evangelicals,jesus camp Doin' Nails for Jesus- from Jesus Camp
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By the way, this is not the scariest moment of the film, there are many many more... and a rather priceless interview with Rev Ted Haggard, where he tells an aspiring young minister to use the 'cute kid' thing while he's still got it, what a dick.
Curious how she even prays to roll a damn bowling ball. Guess what? Praying does nothing... however people are weak-minded and pathetic enough to keep on praying, even though nothing happens all the time.
I'm getting older, and I should be getting more tolerant (and I wish I was... I really do), but I'm starting to develop an absolute direspect for anyone who is stupid enough to buy into the crap religions feed them.
And you wanna know WHY she decided to go do a sales pitch (because that's what it was) to that girl at the bowling alley?
I'll bet some moronic fuck told her that girls who are attractive and wear makeup and revealing clothes are whores who must be saved from damnation... PATHETIC
GET... A... BRAIN...
QUESTION EVERYTHING!
It's hard for me to believe that people actually buy into this stuff. She was actually reading, enjoying and absorbing the vile, hateful, intolerant bile spewed forth from the pernicious Chick Publications tracts. (www.chick.com to read the holy glory of ignorance for yourselves)
I'd like to see Billy O'Reilly comment on how his beloved Evangelical Christians use their children as propaganda machines since he seems to be so offended by it when the children are bashing on him. (http://www.videosift.com/story.php?id=23979)
Painting nails, though? Well, that's kinda funny, too.
I have come accross some folks here who seem open to such discussion, but many others seem more interested in taking pot shots and tackling straw men than actually engaging in what might resemble thoughtful discourse.
You should actually submit the Polkinghorne and see where it goes. I am still looking (in vain) for some Swinburne to post.
"while attempts made by myself and possibly others to post videos that provide a more substantive case for Christian belief get discarded due to lack of votes."
- you can't provide a more substantive case for christian belief because, as I said, it's not based on evidence, proof, accuracy or even the downright truth (that apllies obviously not only to christian belief, but also all other faiths. THAT'S why you don't get any votes.
Atheist can't talk you out of it with facts, because your belief is not based on them, and you can't convert atheists because facts are stronger than fairy tales (and you know that's what they are, unless your naive enough to actually believe texts written by people who lived 2 thousand years ago, with no perspective or knowledge of the world, and compiled by other people who lived about 1700, for the sole purpose of actually making up a religion. that's all)
The problem with much of the discussion on religion, and with many of the videos that are posted here on the topic, is that they don't engage in this sort of discourse. You are entirely right about the potshots and tackling of straw men which comprises most religious debates (though it comes from both sides). The problem is that, for most people, entirely too little thought goes into the decision to become a theist or an atheist, and many people make the decision for the wrong reasons. That's why you see ridiculous videos like this popping up on VideoSift.
The girl in this video is clearly brainwashed, and the things she says, and which many evangelical Christians (and extremists of any religious group) say, hold no water when held up to reasonable scrutiny. Religion, in most cases, is too mystical and politicized to allow for intelligent debate. Atheism suffers the same weakness.
In my opinion, people who speak and behave the way the adults do in "Jesus Camp" deserve criticism. So do the atheists who faithfully (and hypocritically) profess an absolute knowledge (read: belief) that religion is entirely a sham.
But the fact remains that VideoSift is a website on the Internet, and the majority of it's visitors and users compromise of people who hold atheist or agnostic beliefs. Especially since alot of traffic is from Europe.
Some may express a stronger view then others, but maybe that's simply because for the last 1000 years or so religious belief has been dominant, and only recently with the emergence of people like Richard Dawkins and Stephen Gould has the issue become so prominent.
Such a discussion wouldn't even have emerged just a few decades ago. Especially now when Religious divides are fueling conflicts. Evangelical Christianity is scary in it's core beliefs that Apocalypse is something that is preordained by God.
I don't think the resistance is so much with the philosophical discussion of whether God exists or not since that is entirely subjective.
But rather the view that religious thought should pervade our politics and discourse in society. At least that is my rational, I have no problems with people possessing their own faith and beliefs.
But it troubles me when people in power are judged on whether or not they posses religious beliefs. Running for any high ranking public office position with no religious background is suicidal. Appeasing to a Christian base by using religious wording and so on...
My comments toward atheists were general, and not specific anyone here. I just have a problem with people who reject religion as an unrealistic leap of faith, and in the same breath express a firm -belief- in the non-existence of a deity. Since you can neither prove nor disprove the existence of a god (by the very nature of the definition), both believing and disbelieving in its existence are both acts of faith.
As an example, I don't feel that a Christian makes a very good argument for believing in God by citing text from the Bible which supports his existence. By the same token, I'm not convinced by an atheist attempting to prove that God does not exist by disproving portions of the Bible.
I will agree 100% with farhad2000 that when politics and religion mix, it's bad. Religion should be entirely a personal decision, and should only affect people's personal lives. I also think that people should put more thought into this decision than many of them do.
"So do the atheists who faithfully (and hypocritically) profess an absolute knowledge (read: belief) that religion is entirely a sham."
But religion IS an absolute sham. Every single one.
And there is proof for that. History has showed us that.
What I obviously can't prove if the existence (or not) of a god.
But religions, are definitely bad.
So much for questioning everything . . .
I am entertained by fundamentalist atheists, though, particularly the idea of a supposed hatred of mobbish absolutism married to a supercilious absolutism. Very much like watching the Log Cabin Republicans justifying the Bush Administration.
And at the same time, OF COURSE there are many purely religious nutjobs who kill people and break things -- Charles Taylor in Liberia/Sierra Leone, Hutus in Rwanda, Muslims in Sudan and Congo, Bin Laden, name your favorite radical Muslim sect in dozens of countries in the Middle East, Zionist settlers, etc. etc.
But it, i.e. fucking the world, requires a number of elements beyond merely theism or atheism. It requires political, nationalistic, and military ideologies as well as a willingness on the part of other nations to look the other way to protect their economic interests. And what is so tiresome and lazy is this repetitive exchange:
Theist: You don't Believe in Jesus and I can't listen to you because you are damned to Hell.
Atheist: Well, you are stupid and you have fucked up the world.
Ad hominem ad nauseum
You can't argue people into giving up religion. It's a subjective thing.
Let me tell you a joke, once a long time ago people believed that the sun went around the earth. We all now know that the earth goes around the sun. But ask yourself how it would look like if the sun did revolve around the earth?
And I obviously know that I can't convince people to give up religion. It's a matter of belief, not reationality.
I'm sorry, but I didn't get the point with the earth-around-the-sun bit.
Are you trying to tell me that I may be wrong (which is a possibility, and as a rational person I always consider that)?
Because that's a really bad example.
Want a better one to illustrate the stupidity of belief?
If god existed and tomorrow appeared to everyone on earth, and made himself known, I would obviously start believing in him.
However, if tomorrow, scientists proved with absolute certainty that no god existed, how many believers do you know that would actually stop believing?
I know that neither case will happen (although the latter is much more probable, with the ever advancing fields of science), it's merely a study case. However, I think you get the point.
We have come to the realization that the world is not as is, based on our previous religious beliefs. Now we come to science. But science does not offer all the answers, but it asks the right questions. I mean for a while scientists thought that a trip to the moon is a ridiculous idea.
One must be careful not to fall into the same pit of blind acceptance as we have with religion. That's all am trying to say.
And I honestly doubt a test for God can be developed, our ideas of God are simply that. Our ideas. It's perfectly possible that a God exists but it's far beyond our human understanding, our rational and the context we have developed for a God. If that is the case? How do you prove his existence? I mean the universe could be God itself, and we are just the conduits for it experiencing itself subjectively.
The rabbit hole is far deeper then anyone can really fathom.
"I mean for a while scientists thought that a trip to the moon is a ridiculous idea."
That's absolutely true, and I think there was even some scientists who only 10 years before the moon landing still said it couldn't be done.
But then you fell in the same category as those erroneous scientists:
"And I honestly doubt a test for God can be developed(...)"
You're going down the same path as those scientists. I for one, know that science doesn't have all the answers... yet! I don't think it will have in my life time or even my great-great-great-great-grandsons time. But someday. It will happen (unless humanity colapses or is destroyed by a natural disaster).
I don't make the claim that science can't do X. I say that science can't do X at the present time. That's the difference
I leave room for improvement, research, better scientists or simply more intelligent.
And besides... I'm sure that you would agree with me that science has come a long long hardous way in the last... let's say... 3 centuries?
And you also know that science is unfortunately still underrated and underfunded, because we pathetic humans have governments who prefer to waste their money on totally useless things like weapons (specially the american case. did you know that 1 year's worth of budget for the american army could easily erradicate world hunger forever?), or other political interests.
Imagine, please, a world where science and education (together with health) were the most heavily funded sections of society. I think we would see a REALLY REALLY big improvement not only in the ammount of information and new discoveries being made, but also in overall life quality for everyone on this planet.
It's about having a rational view and then a personal opinion. I did say "I honestly think..."
People tend to limit themselves.
"Our ideas of God are simply that. Our ideas. It's perfectly possible that a God exists but it's far beyond our human understanding, our rational and the context we have developed for a God."
Think of it this way, if you are an ant how could you possibly fathom what a human being is? Does the rat lab understand the scientist that experiments on it?
This is the point am driving at. It was merely a thought exercise.
But for some reason you think it's a point that you should condescend to. This is why I hate atheism just as much as theism. Because each condescends to the other. Just like Rickgee said. I understand atheism just as much as I understand the psychological need for some people to possess belief in God. Because it is comforting.
Saying things like "weak-minded and pathetic enough to keep on praying, even though nothing happens all the time." is condescending, obviously your rich western life meant you never had to live in an enviroment of no hope. Where religion offers some kind of support.
You never lived in an enviroment of positive religious experience, I grew up in one, learned of science and everything but accepted the positives of what my religion had offered me when I was young.
My good friend's daughter died, he was an atheist but he reverted to Islam because he couldn't handle the pain of the loss he suffered alone. And so he sought refuge in his religion. Does that make him weak and stupid?
Atheists always look at the bad side of theism because that's what bothers them. I don't believe in doing that. Am sorry if am just not closed-minded about things.
"There are no atheists in a fox hole"
I know you were trying to make a point. not my fault if it's a flimsy one, because it all comes down to the truth. Who is right? atheists ou theists? Unless you're going down some paradoxal philosophical path, there can't be a god and not be at the same time.
And it's like every sentence you write supports atheism:
"obviously your rich western life meant you never had to live in an enviroment of no hope. Where religion offers some kind of support."
-obviously I was fortunate enough to have been born in a place with good living conditions in a family that could provide them to me. If you have nothing, you turn to religion out of what? that's right... despair and fear. Yes people are weak. Of course I don't really know how weak I am because I never had to live with food, water, living conditions, freedom, etc. But that doesn't null the fact that most people in those conditions resort to religion BECAUSE of the conditions. It's a weakened situation for them.
"My good friend's daughter died, he was an atheist but he reverted to Islam because he couldn't handle the pain of the loss he suffered alone. And so he sought refuge in his religion. Does that make him weak and stupid?"
Yes. It does make him weak. No it does not make him stupid. It's not out of stupidity that he converted. He also converted out of not being able to bear the conditions. He was also weakened. I'm pretty sure there's a lot of atheist in the world who had to go through very hard times in their lifes, and didn't resort to believing in fairy tales to make their lifes more bearing.
So in recap... Yes. People are weak. Unfortunately. And yes. A WHOLE lot of people start "believing" (if you can even call it that.. because it's quite a pathetic belief out of despair, and not honestly wanting to) simply because they are driven to it.
Oh.. and no.. I didn't really have negative religious experiences growing up. And I did learn of science and everything. And really.. there's nothing religions teaches you that isn't common sense (like being good to others, and so on. In fact, religion teaches a lot worse things than simple common sense). I just think it's absurd, useless, and it's a good way for people not to face the reality of their lives. Maybe one day humans will evolve just a little bit more to dispense that kind of things.
I'm sorry, but I guess I'm bit different from the bunch who populate this planet.
And the ""There are no atheists in a fox hole" quote is pathetic, and obviously thought up by a theist. I can guarantee you that there are many people who had to endure wars who didn't succumb to religious beliefs. AND even if they did. Once again it would be in a situation where their lives are in imminent danger. No one in it's right mind wants to die. So it REALLY is a pathetic sentence, and if I was a theist, I would be even embarassed to use it, because it just supports the fact that people resort to belief out of fear and despair.
Final point: Humans, brought up in good living conditions without despairing situations in their lifes (as it should be) should have absolutely no need to resort to religion. Unfortunately we all go through tough situations during our life time (may it be uncertainty of a job, losing a family member, being rejected, etc.), and that's why even in western countries where living conditions are the bestm some people still believe because they had some pain in their lifes. If you look at the countries with the best living conditions in the world (nordic european countries) their also the ones with less believers. I think it makes a whole lot of sense.