Heartbreaking.

Awful. Terrible. Sad.

OP where is the info about the circumstances of the murder? (sniper and alley aspects for instance)

These Basij are a bit of a fuck up. Poor, uneducated rural kids, given a gun, a gang and a story of self-glorification. I can just imagine the shit they get told to fuel their hate of the westernised, educated urban middle class. The political manouvering and power consolidation that gave birth to the 4million - 14million Basij is so cut-throat: I can't think of a country so neatly at odds with itself.

Um. I thought there was a rule about no death-videos? Or did we change our minds?

This is still snuff, not matter what angle you have.
It's already been discussed before. *discard

Netrunner, make a talk about the situation, if you think people ought to see it.

Discarding this post - discard requested by member gwiz665.

Just for reference:
http://www.videosift.com/video/Iran-protest-spectator-shot-in-front-of-her-dad
http://www.videosift.com/video/Iranian-Girl-Dying-in-Street
So I don't seem like just a discardin SOB.

*promote

Promoting this video and sending it back into the queue for one more try; last queued Monday, June 22nd, 2009 9:27pm PDT - promote requested by kronosposeidon.

*discuss

Here is my reason this video should stay.

This video is being sent to Sift Talk for discussion - discuss requested by kronosposeidon.

>> ^kronosposeidon:
discuss
Here is my reason this video should stay.

If this video gets to stay, then the credit deserves to go to vairetube whom graciously discarded it because there was complaints about snuff...he was the first I saw to have posted the video...

Here is the discussion that went on with that...and like I said I don't want to watch the video to see if they're the EXACT same, so somebody else check
http://www.videosift.com/video/Iranian-Girl-Dying-in-Street

It is indeed the exact same video, and as I said there, it is definitely important, newsworthy, whatever, but this isn't the place for it. It has always been the rule that no snuff is allowed here, even if it's important (ie. Iraq beheading videos) and this is as snuffy as it gets.

Rottenseed, if varietube was first then that's fine, he (she?) should be able to keep it and then this one can be discarded, but not until the debate has come to an end.

Sarzy, we HAVE kept videos with depictions of death before because they were deemed newsworthy. Here are a couple of examples:

http://www.videosift.com/video/Canadian-Police-Taser-Man-To-Death

http://www.videosift.com/video/Police-shoot-unarmed-man-laying-face-down-in-the-back

Indeed this one (Neda's death) is a little bloody, but the end result is the same: All of them died. All of these are newsworthy. They are not random traffic accidents or some anonymous skydiver plummeting to his death because of a failed parachute opening. They are all significant events. And if most major news outlets around the whole world can show these videos, then so can we.

Like I said in my linked comment, the burning monk is not "snuff" because his death became symbolic of the Vietnam War. Neda's death has already become symbolic of the Iranian struggle for freedom. It is not "snuff."

This video must stay. I think there's a difference in spirit vs. law of the "snuff" rule here. A typical snuff video can be argued for the viewers "entertainment" or even to get a shock from the viewer.

This particular death carries weight of political and human significance that commands a sense of respect and deference to Neda for the typical viewer.

The intent of posting this was clearly not to entertain or shock the viewer, it was to remind us of our humanity, both the good and the evil that we have the potential to show towards others.

This image must be kept alive for posterity so that we can remember these things.

This video must stay, it's going to become part of *history. This has become the symbol of a fledgling revolution in Iran that is either going to unravel the existing order, or get brutally crushed in front of our eyes.

I don't care whose copy gets kept, so long as a copy does indeed get kept.

I was expecting people to cry dupe, not "inappropriate".

Well, I'm convinced -- and while this is still being discussed, I think it would probably be a good idea for dag or lucky to change the wording in the guidelines to make it clear that stuff like this is allowed. Either that, or make it more clear that stuff like this isn't allowed, because as it stands the rule is kind of ambiguous.

If one has to stay, http://www.videosift.com/video/Iran-protest-spectator-shot-in-front-of-her-dad has seniority. (and it's by far the most gruesome too. )

It's not "snuff". It is an important incident in the situation in Iran. It may be unpleasant to see someone die but it happens and furthermore she was killed by government militia. In this case I'm glad it was recorded. I don't know if they'll get justice for her family but that's one reason why it should stay.

Well, let me repost from the guidelines, since people seem to be hung up on the word "snuff":

Please do not post pornography or "snuff" films (which we define as the explicit depiction of loss of human life displayed for entertainment).

Note: The presence of human fatality is acceptable and not considered "snuff" if presented as a limited portion of a lengthy educational, informative news report or documentary. Our definition of "snuff" does include but is not exclusive to any short clip in which a human fatality occurs whether or not any victims are actually visible on camera. (emphasis mine)

I agree that this should be on here, but I think the wording of the rule needs to change. Just going by the way the rule is worded, this is clearly snuff as per the guidelines -- the clip is not part of a "lengthy educational, informative news report or documentary". The clip, taken on its own without any context, is just a girl dying. You have to know what you're watching to know how important it is.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag.(show it anyway)

I think the more important part of the definition is "which we define as the explicit depiction of loss of human life displayed for entertainment"

This is here for the historic nature of the event. It's gut wrenchingly awful but is probably not snuff or entertainment.

If anyone adds keyboard cat, THEN it is really snuff. But obviously no one is that heartless...

the original by varietube should be restored - I don't have any powerpoints but when I do I will promote it - in the meantime anyone else feel free to - or comment me to tell me otherwise - its horrifying, its gruesome, but its news, and its out there, not snuff.

Well, okay, but am I really the only one who thinks that the way the rule is written is completely ambiguous and somewhat contradictory? Am I really the only anal nitpicker? (wow, that sounded dirty

I mean, the way the rule is written, it literally defines snuff twice, and one definition contradicts the other. First the rule states that "we define [snuff] as the explicit depiction of loss of human life displayed for entertainment." Okay, fair enough. But then it goes on to say that "our definition of "snuff" does include but is not exclusive to any short clip in which a human fatality occurs." So first snuff is defined as death for entertainment, then it's defined as any death at all in any context. So which is it, because it can't be both? I would say that, based on the consensus of this video, the entire second paragraph of that rule isn't really applicable and should be removed just for clarity's sake.

>> ^Sarzy:
Am I really the only anal nitpicker?

Yes.

Well, you and blankfist.

I'm a big fan of clear and objective rules. Here's my suggested clarification:

Please do not post pornography or snuff films.

We define "pornography" as any clip that gives dag wood.

We define "snuff" as the explicit or implicit depiction of real human fatalities displayed solely for entertainment. Exceptions will be made for historically significant events, or clips provided in an educational or documentary context at community discretion.

I figure the "porn" part needs some clarification as well.

>> ^gwiz665:
If anyone adds keyboard cat, THEN it is really snuff. But obviously no one is that heartless...

uh...

*closes Microsoft Movie Maker*

Do you know how many different times I heard this conversation between two or more people in my office over the last 3 days?

"OH DUDE! Did you see that girl that got shot?"

"No! What happened?"

"...it was in Iran, it shows her laying on the ground and blood is shooting everywhere!"

"show me!"

*scamper off to youtube*

If this is what you mean by 'an important incident' and not 'for entertainment'. If you can assure me that when some douche yearning to quench their blood lust types "shot Iranian girl" into google, videosift does NOT come up, then I'll believe that it's not being used for entertainment.

Oh hai sorry to lapse and comment on everything but things actually sort of about me.

im a dude sorry i know the name is a girl .. god... from tolkien. chose it randomly when i made my first eq character.

Please Support THIS POST:

http://www.videosift.com/video/CNN-Video-Of-Neda-Before-She-Was-Killed-In-Iranian-Protest

add your informational links to it maybe skip the opinions and leave them in talk.. just to keep it condensed and useful?

also .. since no one can assure anyone of anyone's intentions... can't we let people decide for themselves and suffer the consequences if they are careless or heartless... because they'll get theirs someday...right? truly, anyone would be so lucky as to read all the debates on this site...even if their initial intention was to be entertained... i know thats what happened to me.

I vote that imstellar was the first as he posted the LINK in his TALK post like a good boy... nearly 4 days ago as of today june 24... and after i submitted "my" movie i clicked his link and found it was the same. So if anyone deserves the sift in this case... it would be him... that is, if it's determined it should be a sift and that i should be the one... i pass the buck here and now!!! better late than never. sorry. make him take it since he brought it up.. or add ALL the info into a new, MEGA post... kinda trending that way. lets make it nice and concise with lots of links to opinions minus the opinions themselves.

this is an extraordinary case that will take a little bit of time to sort out appropriately but there are my belated ideas.

>> ^rottenseed:
If you can assure me that when some douche yearning to quench their blood lust types "shot Iranian girl" into google, videosift does NOT come up, then I'll believe that it's not being used for entertainment.


By the same token, we need to classify Laura Logan as a porn star until she can prove that no one is getting aroused while listening to her talk about Iraq.

>> ^NetRunner:
>> ^rottenseed:
If you can assure me that when some douche yearning to quench their blood lust types "shot Iranian girl" into google, videosift does NOT come up, then I'll believe that it's not being used for entertainment.

By the same token, we need to classify Laura Logan as a porn star until she can prove that no one is getting aroused while listening to her talk about Iraq.

Fine...I was very entertained to see that girl die right in front of my eyes. There, can we take it down now?

Dag .. does this mean that terrorist beheading videos are welcome here now?
They are certainly newsworthy, historical and those acts/deaths have significant meaning.

Create a *graphic channel if you need to, akin to NSFW, but these things cannot and should not be censored. There is no reason to forbid it from the site, if there is proper warning given. Nobody is going to doubt the reputation of this site if it posts videos that Youtube and CNN allow.

We live in an a world of violence, to ignore it, is to live in a fantasy world. These events unfolding are not only shaping Iran, they are shaping world culture, and it is far too powerful to ignore.

Youtube, google, facebook, twitter, CNN, who doubts the credibility or reputation of these sites? These images and videos are plastered all over them. What exactly are we protecting against?

>> ^NetRunner:
Well, you and blankfist.

Color me confused.

The video is of a girl dying. There's no story in the video. It's just a girl dying. This is clearly snuff (IMO).

newsworthy

>> ^blankfist:
Color me confused.


I figure you're always onboard with something that sounds dirty, like anal nitpicking.

(In other words, I was trying to make a funny)

>> ^blankfist:
>> ^NetRunner:
Well, you and blankfist.

Color me confused.

racist

It's basically a dupe of mine anyway. Mine contains the news coverage footage from CNN as well as the footage shown here.

http://www.videosift.com/video/CNN-Video-Of-Neda-Before-She-Was-Killed-In-Iranian-Protest

^Actually varietube posted his video before you posted yours, by more than a day in fact. Check out the post time and compare it to yours:

http://www.videosift.com/video/Iranian-Girl-Dying-in-Street

I appreciate that you're trying to simplify the matter, but in this case it unfortunately won't work.

Here's my tally so far:

Those in favor of it staying (8)
- kronosposeidon
- brycewi19
- NetRunner
- Deano
- dag
- Zonbie
- imstellar28
- blankfist

Those in favor of it being removed (4)
- gwiz665
- rottenseed
- eric3579
- burdturgler

Undetermined (2)
- varietube (who's willing to give it to imstellar28, but hasn't made a clear declaration one way or the other (at least it's not quite clear to me))
- Sarzy (who thinks it should stay, but who also thinks our present guidelines forbid it, thus making his decision unclear to me too)

If I'm mistaken about any of these please say so. I say we give this more time, maybe 12 or 24 more hours, just to make sure everyone has had ample opportunity to have their voices heard.

>> ^NetRunner
(In other words, I was trying to make a funny)


Color me confused.

>> ^blankfist:
>> ^NetRunner
(In other words, I was trying to make a funny)

Color me confused.


A one part puzzle would confuse you.

I'll add that if we want to allow this, then all the videos that have been sifted should be allowed, because they have different perspectives. And if we allow this, I really, really think we should make that "graphic" channel, so we have a "super-NSFW" thing to filter them away for those who don't want to see them. Even the thumbnails can be grizzly, so I think the channel is needed.

>> ^kronosposeidon:
Sarzy (who thinks it should stay, but who also thinks our present guidelines forbid it, thus making his decision unclear to me too)

I think that the guidelines forbid it and allow it at the same time and thus need to be rewritten to be a bit more clear. But I definitely do agree that the video should stay.

If dag says it stays then it stays, but it is snuff

Color me confused. What? It doesn't get funnier the more I repeat it?

With Sarzy's vote we now have a tally of 9-4-1 in favor of keeping this video. Everyone has had plenty of time to voice their opinions, so now it is time for us to take action. Therefore I am going to discard this one and promote varietube's back to life, because his was posted first. Whether varietube decides to keep it or not after that is up to him. If he decides to discard it then no further posts should be allowed, solely because Duckman33's news video of this event already includes this clip.

And varietube, unfortunately we don't allow members to "give" each other videos that have already been posted, so you can't give it to imstellar28. Like I said, whether you keep it or not after today is entirely up to you, but you can't transfer it to someone else. We just don't do that here. We transfer votes from to duplicate to videos to the originals, but not the videos themselves. Sorry.

*discard

Discarding this post - discard requested by member kronosposeidon.

Brief wheels?

http://www.videosift.com/video/Basiji-Sniper-Shoots-Teenage-Iranian-Girl-Amid-Protest#comment-793688

A.......IF video is to be sifted

B......THEN i dont want to sift it.

C..............IF stellar can have it he maybe should imo

D...............SINCE he can't......GO TO A.

I dont know why it was not left discarded. I would have killed it earlier to let someone else sift, but no one really seemed to want to, and rightfully so. I had an alternate suggestion as well:

"or add ALL the info into a new, MEGA post... kinda trending that way. lets make it nice and concise with lots of links to opinions minus the opinions themselves. "




I have also been pushing Duckmans post pretty hard in every talk/sift i see regarding this. and I will again:

http://www.videosift.com/video/CNN-Video-Of-Neda-Before-She-Was-Killed-In-Iranian-Protest



I honestly thought it had sorted itself out and people were going to drop it because Duckman had the quality post.

http://www.videosift.com/video/Basiji-Sniper-Shoots-Teenage-Iranian-Girl-Amid-Protest#comment-793688

I can't stand this.

I can't stand the reality and the carnival scene.

I can't stand how the USA is supposed to fix it.

I can't stand that this apparent moment has been used like a pawn on a chess board.