ART OF SEDUCTION: Not Pretty, Really
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Stumble ThisFrom the Sundance Channel, this short film explores both the advantages and disadvantages of being physically attractive. Some of the answers may be cliche, but I still found it thought-provoking.
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As far as women go, believe it or not, but they don't necessarily want to be fucked by every dude that comes along.
(Sorry, I couldn't help myself.)
It would be interesting to see the reverse story, about "ugly" people and what prejudices there are against them.
You're right gwiz, I would much rather hear the other side.
The tragedy is when people who have used their "attractiveness" all their life, to get where they are, finally age and loose that appeal. Many have their self-worth rapped up in appearance, hence the popularity of plastic surgery.
"The tragedy is when people who have used their "attractiveness" all their life, to get where they are, finally age and loose that appeal. Many have their self-worth rapped up in appearance, hence the popularity of plastic surgery."
- and 'all their life' every person they meet reinforces their dependence on their looks, constantly. It's hard not to get brainwashed into thinking it's all you got.
I don't doubt that some suffer from their good looks. However, IMHO psychologically, the wallfower's suffering is far greater. Whether it was choosing sides for a game of dodgeball, or choosing partners at a school dance, the pain on the face of the last chosen couldn't be disguised. Things aren't going to be easier for today's kids, with digital photo enhancement raising the bar of beauty to unrealistic heights.
I can personally vouch for this.
I know it must suck to be constantly looked at like a piece of meat and all, and that not all woman want to be fucked by every guy that walks along, but as far as problems go, that's a pretty good one to have.
Would these people rather be stared at because they have a hideous deformity or skin disease? Would they rather be stared at because they can't afford proper dental care and are missing a their teeth?
How about just having to go through life living in a shitty house wearing shitty clothes? Or maybe no house at all? How about some cancer. Let's make it terminal. And let's take one of thier limbs off while we're at it.
So, in short, that's a problem I'd like to have, and I don't think they have any right to bitch. It's amazing how many stares women won't get because they decided to wear a shirt that didn't show cleavage.
Take my girlfriend for example. She works at a small coffee shop, and tells me she wears revealing shirts specifically because it nets her twice the tips. Coincidence? I think not.
Lets all be charitable to these poor souls and tell the next good looking person we meet they look hideous. I'm sure it will make them feel much better.
That's why I upvoted this one.
A first impression of a person will often be based upon stereotypes and that's true for all people, attractive or not. If this is the biggest source of suffering in these peoples' lives then they have got it really fucking good. With all the REAL problems that people face in the world, there is no reason to indulge this pointless victimization.
"Do you know that you're ugly as hell?"
"Has anyone ever charged you more for sitting in their restaurant?"
We could call it "ART OF REPULSION: Not Pretty, At All".
She's an awesome kid and is going to be a fine woman one day. She knows she could ride on her looks, but it's her brains that will get her what she really wants.
When I see a beautiful woman, I like to imagine taking the epidermis off of her, so she's a walking pile of pink sinew and glistening muscle tissue. This helps me get a grip on my own "dermal-level" response to human sexual attraction. Beauty really is skin-deep, but the behavior that is caused by it can probably be a pain in the ass.
We know what turns us on as humans- symmetrical faces, large pupils, white sclera etc. Not to mention all of the secondary sexual stuff that works on another level. large, full lips are just body self-mimicry for a different set of lips ...
As self-aware beings, we need to keep in-check our animal nature and keep a look out for real beauty.
Kind of off-topic, but there's one other bit of body self-mimicry that I read about in The Naked Ape:
So, most primates do it doggie style- and large inflamed buttocks were the indicator that the female was in estrus. When humans started doing it missionary style - that big buttocks sexual indicator was replaced with something on the front of the body. Yep - big boobies. That's why we men are attracted to them - and why they are often large, even though they don't functionally need to be big to deliver milk.
So fellows, just think about engorged monkey arses, the next time you see a good set.
Everyone has a cross to bear, some more readily visible than others. This does not mean that everyone is a victim, however. I'd downvote this if I could simply because sometime in the past decades it became socially encouraged to claim victim status as the solution to every problem.
I hope they follow this up with a documentary on how difficult it is to be a millionaire.
I totally agree. To paraphrase Aeschylus: humanity is suffering. As you say, everyone in the world has a cross to bear, a source of suffering that they wish they could do without. Guess what? We're humans, not gods, and suffering is just part of the game we have to play.
That said, there are sources of real tragedy and there are sources of minor discomfort. Being too good looking would certainly fall into the latter category. Would any of these people interviewed trade in their good looks for a world in which the mortality rate for children was over 50%? Had they been born just 200 years ago, or in the developing world for that matter, the best looks in the world wouldn't save them from the experience of losing several children. As others have pointed out, the interviewees are all wearing trendy clothing and have absolutely perfect teeth. This suggests to me that none of them have had to experience the grinding desperation that is poverty. It is also highly unlikely that any of the men interviewed will be forced to fight in a war during their lifetime; in the ancient Greek world there was no such thing as a conscientious objector, warfare was incessant, and roughly half of all adult men would die on the battlefield as opposed to old age.
I could go on, but the point is that to live in the modern, industrialized world is to live as securely, prosperously and removed from suffering as human beings have ever been in our 150,000 year history as a species. Someone being "too good looking" is such a minor concern when put in the perspective of the developing world and the human past. If the greatest source of hardship in someone's life is that their good looks cause them some minor social discomfort, then they need to stop claiming victim status, wake up and get some perspective.
Definition: understanding
The 2 are far from being the same. For some, the idea that they might be being asked to feel sympathy might offend. Can the idea that your being asked to have understanding EVER offend? I mean that seriously, can it?
This is not something that is seen with "understanding" by our culture (tbh, little is). It in noway detracts or lessons the experiences and feelings of others, whatever they might be, and however different they might be. It only seeks to share something that many might know nothing about, so that understanding of it can be increased.
Please tell me you're not making a suit.
Goodbye, horses...
Attacking something because you feel no sympathy for it is an utter strawman when that was never what you were being asked to do/have/feel.
73.2% of statistics are made up and I'm going to stop ranting for a bit.
"people assume things about you","like being unintelligent, TWO-dimensional,..."
This struck me as an awesome thing for an person who probably works by being on a piece of paper or on tv to be complaining about. The saying is usually "you're so one-dimensional", btw.
I understand what they are saying, but I don't care. I still don't think they have the right to bitch. It's not hard for an intelligent pretty person to dispel the myth that they are stupid. It is easy for a pretty person to make themselves less attractive. Wear loose clothing. Wear more covering clothing. Don't do your hair up. Don't wear makeup.
And of course when the ratio of men outnumbers the amount if girls in a class/dorm/whatever, they become the center of attention. It would be the exact same way if there were 100 girls and 10 boys. There's only so many to go around.
I personally believe that we should try to empathize with everyone, regardless of how trivial we perceive their problems to be, because maybe their problems really aren't so trivial. Yes, I can think of worse problems to have than being sexually objectified. Being horribly maimed or disfigured is just one example that I consider to be worse. Having severe mental illness is yet another, IMHO. However, we're in the 21st century and yet sexual harassment and the "glass ceiling" for women are still very real problems in the workplace, and pretty women are often the ones who find themselves in those situations. Also consider Marilyn Monroe. She struggled to get serious acting roles because she was often just considered "a face", and all her good looks didn't prevent her from taking her own life.
If you don't want to consider beautiful people as having any disadvantages, that's fine. However, I hope that after you've seen this video you'll look past the looks and try to learn more about attractive people you meet before you simply categorize them as "a face".
I'm also adding this to the *Canada channel, as I noticed that it was directed by KITH alumnus Mark McKinney, and it was also produced in cooperation with the National Film Board of Canada.
"Think about what that really means, Fishlegboots. It means these people feel they can't afford to be vulnerable, they can't just be themselves, they can't be real, they don't want to be warm or candid with people too much, because they don't want to give the wrong message.
As far as women go, believe it or not, but they don't necessarily want to be fucked by every dude that comes along."
Sorry, but wtf? They feel they can't afford to be vulnerable, themselves, real? Are you saying that their need to remain attractive forces them to act in a certain way? That's just vanity.
They can't afford to be candid and warm with people because it [might be seen as flirting]???? I'm having to guess at what you mean here because you leave it all nice and vague. Are you saying that people will see an ugly person being nice and think "oh, she's nice", but see an attractive person being nice and go "she so wants me"? I don't believe that's true at all. People are more inclined to be attracted to attractive people (big shock, i know), when that person is nice, it means that they are less likely to get a big nasty knockback when they ask that person on a date.
If someone said to me "i know he's only being nice because he wants to get into my pants", i'd say "WELL AT LEAST HE'S BEING NICE, HE'S BEING A COMPLETE TOOL TO ME". There's a lot of asses out there. Ugly people get a lot of ass-attention too. It just comes in a different way. And given the choice between being bullied (mentally and/or physically) or avoided because you're "ugly", or having everyone be nice to me because i'm attractive, i know which one i'd choose.
I think this is absolutely pointless whinging. Mess your hair up, wear crappy clothes, don't wear make up. You do those things to make yourself more attractive, so don't complain when it works. And there are plenty of attractive women who do that.
Believe it or not, not every dude wants to fuck every woman that they see.
Babies.
... That's what psychopaths do!
I'm gonna quote the gospel (of South Park) and say, "they're all pink on the inside".
Why should I, when the self image society has placed on me is that I'm worthless? I got over that stigma years ago and am quite happy, even if I do still get random chavs come up to me on the street and tell me I have big ears (seriously whats up with that?). If I can get over that they can can get over being too pretty.
No one should be told that they *must* be sympathetic to someone else.
As a decent looking straight guy, I sometimes get attention from people I don't find particularly attractive, or other guys. When this happens, my evolutionary instincts tell me to shun these people, but rather than give into my cold and pragmatic animal innards, I instead smile and treat the unwanted admirer with respect.
Admiration is a compliment, no matter who it comes from and it can feel pretty shitty when you are on the other side of this equation.
Yes, there is an attractiveness caste system, and yes, it serves an important evolutionary function, but isn't it our job as human beings to try to rise above some of the superfluous side-effects of our violent, prejudiced and cruel animal nature?
When someone from a higher attractiveness caste gives me a knowing glance or a wink, I don't interpret it as an invitation to sex, but rather as another human being, confident enough in their own moccasins to show some humanity.
I think it is a testament to the power of beauty that we feel empathy (yes, I feel it too) for people who are basically saying "OMG, ugly people are looking at me.... Make them stop!"
Dag,
If skinless corpses start turning up, we'll know where to send the cops.
Mix,
It sounds like your daughter could teach those in this video a thing or too. What instrument does she play?
MG,
Well said, I agree.
ScottishMartialArts,
Good point on the stereotypes. Speaking personally(Liberal/White/Male/American/Californian/Musician/Drummer), the only negative stereo-types that bug me are the ones that are true.
kronos,
You mention pretty women struggling with the glass ceiling, but again, as MG says, I think hitting the ceiling is the kind of problem you WANT to have. How many smarter/better qualified employees did these pretty women step over on their way up the ladder to the glass ceiling?
Good discussion all. I love dissecting these types of societal taboos.
I mean, really? You think this was... touching? Wtf?
I'd like to bind those "pretty girls" to a chair, have a pack of angry sad ugly girls, let them watch this, and then see their reaction.
I think I'd enjoy it very much.
I'm disgusted.
For the wallflowers out there...
"She may be quiet
She may be shy
But don't you bring her down
Don't pass her by
The world of wisdom behind her eyes
Could answer everything
But you and I
We seem to wander in a daydream (ooh ooh)
We never look around
The world is full of other people (ooh ooh)
And we put 'em down....
She's not beautiful
But don't make it plain
You underestimate
It's not a game
A heart of gold
Behind the drab
Would comfort anyone
But you and I
Should try to see it from the other side (oooh)
We'll get a shock
It could surprise you
The world is full of other people (ooh ooh)
Take a look around....
To wonder why
The world keeps turning
For you and I"
The video is also, mind you, an example of one of the problems pretty people run into: they're so hot they make the opposite gender melt. Can you imagine how hard it is to get a date when everyone's a pile of liquid goo because of you?
http://www.videosift.com/video/3-nerds-2-seduction-coaches-great-reality-TV
in my experience, the need to remain SAFE (sometimes emotionally, sometimes physically) forces me to act a certain way at times, closing off my natural openness in meeting people for one thing. gaining weight or losing weight at different times to try to be invisible, body modifications that put people off, not taking care of my appearance at all -- those are some of the options i've exercised to avoid "flattering" attention based solely on my looks. i'm NOT saying i've ever been one of the uber-hot, btw. but i can empathize with them based on my own experiences.
sorry if that was TMI, but that's a lot of what i like at VS: real thought-and-discussion-provoking videos, not *just* cute kittens, though that's great too.
> you see a good set.
Oh God that just makes it worse, I need a cold shower.
From Wikipedia:
By the age of 2, children normally begin to display the fundamental behaviors of empathy by having an emotional response that corresponds with another person. Even earlier, at one year of age, infants have some rudiments of empathy, in the sense that they grasp the intentions of other people. Sometimes, toddlers will comfort others or show concern for them as early as 24 months of age. Also during the second year, toddlers will play games of falsehood or "pretend" in an effort to fool others, and this requires that the child know what others believe before he or she can manipulate those beliefs.
In 1997, Douglas Olsen defined empathetic maturity as the cognitive structure that determines whether a person can feel or not feel empathy, who one feels it for and how broad a group. Differences in empathetic maturity are differences in the way a person relates self-created meaning to meaning perceived in others. Empathetic maturity provides the criteria for determining whether another will be experienced as "like me" or "different." More inclusive criteria increase the number and diversity of others who will be perceived empathetically. The highest of the hierarchical stages of empathetic maturity is the most inclusive where all others are perceived as "like me." (Olsen, 2001) There are three stages of empathetic maturity (Olsen, 2001; and Olsen, 1997):
Stage 1 – This most primitive pattern and not common in adults. Persons at this stage see others as fundamentally different from themselves. The rationales for another's actions, feelings, or thoughts are not experienced as having human relevance in the sense that one’s own rationales do. Those operating at this stage perceive mutuality with others concretely.
Stage 2 – People at Stage 2 hold that their rationales for behavior are valid for everyone. And so, reasons for behaviors and feelings are legitimate to the degree they coincide with the person at Stage 2. Unlike Stage 1, the Stage 2 person sees others like him or her so long as they make sense of their world the same way. Therefore, positive regard for a sufferer perceived to be participating in negative behaviors is difficult for the Stage 2 person unless the behavior is explicable from his or her point of view. An example of such negative behavior would be AIDS as the result of sex practices not condoned by the Stage 2 observer. If the Stage 2 person believes the sufferer is responsible for the behavior, he or she will have no empathy. If the Stage 2 person can detect an acceptable reason why the sufferer is not actually responsible, for example, illness resulted from blood transfusion, beyond the sufferer's control, then empathy emerges. Caregivers at Stage 2 who want to feel empathetic toward their patients often try to find factors that mitigate responsibility. Most of society operates at Stage 2.
Stage 3 – At this stage, mutuality occurs prior to any judgment about the person's behavior. The other is perceived as human in the same way the self is experienced, based solely on being a creator of meaning rather than on the content of the meanings created. The perception of another person as responsible for a problem no longer has the power to hinder the development of empathy. If the sufferer is seen as responsible, there is no longer any need to mitigate that responsibility as a method for allowing empathy. A hallmark of Stage 3 is a person's ability to perceive another empathetically while simultaneously and without apparent contradiction perceiving that other as responsible for problematic behavior.
I'll preface this by saying i've long been a lurker, but haven't felt the need to create an account until this madness started. I, too, am female. I've been told i'm attractive. That doesn't mean I complain about it. In fact, I really don't think it's all that terrible.
Take a look at all of this. Can you find a single woman who hasn't chimed in "Oh no! My life is terrible, too. Other people think i'm pretty!" Look really hard. You'll probably only find one, and that's only because she hasn't been on here in quite a while.
Maybe you should all (with the exception of Smibbo) stop posting about how life is oh-so-terrible because you're beautiful. Maybe the problem is that you need your head examined because you don't have the self-esteem to handle compliments.
I am heading into my senior year of Engineering. Needless to say, i'm one of very few females in my classes. In fact, I was one of three in a class last semester. Conveniently, the teacher always had us working in groups, and never had the girls together. Was it awkward? Yes. Was I hit on? Sure was. But I know how to accept compliments, and don't let things like that bother me.
I have a job where I occasionally use my femininity to my advantage. It makes me quite a bit of money. Do I have lecherous, disgusting male customers? Of course. But I don't go complain to everyone else who is female that will listen.
Yeah, maybe all the boys staring at you does get a little old. Sometimes even irritating. But it's not a problem until you make it into one. And if you can't do that, don't dress up. Stop attracting attention to yourself. Stop trying so hard. Why do you do it in the first place? To feel pretty. Women deny it, but everyone knows it's true.
Stop feeling sorry for yourselves, and stop making such a big deal out of nothing. There will always be someone who finds you attractive. Take it as a compliment and move on.
Maybe you should all (with the exception of Smibbo) stop posting about how life is oh-so-terrible because you're beautiful. Maybe the problem is that you need your head examined because you don't have the self-esteem to handle compliments." [quoting LitteRed]
maybe that's how my comment came across, but that's absolutely not what i was trying to get at. what i empathize with is not the experience of "oh, i'm hot, i get things, it's a burden" but "i feel devalued and dehumanized when i'm judged by my looks alone." and that includes "positive" or "negative" reactions.
i'm glad that you have high self-esteem, but your post was really condescending. the people in this video are reporting THEIR experiences of being beautiful people. it's a documentary asking about their personal experiences. you have some ideas on the problem here. maybe another problem here is that you are projecting your experiences onto these people (and those of us who posted things that go against your opinions).
and for chaucer up there with the mean comments about the lady at the end, you have no idea what motivates her tears. i realize it's my projection now but what i felt from her was sadness, not self-pity.
I love that these "beautiful" people fell for Mark McKinney's expose.
As LittleRed noted, at the end of the day, it is how you do with what you've got that bring satisfaction.
I'm not talking about the basic, "You're very pretty" kind of compliment, but the kind that borders on, or is, sexual harrassment... you can't know unless its happened to you how terribly frightening and disgusting it is to be trapped in a elevator with a man who can't help but stare lecherously at you, and then ventures to say (true story), "I'd like to fuck you if you let me" Out of the blue, just like that, its terrifying, does not make one feel pretty but rather dirty somehow, and yes, it does bring out tears. Or there are even sometimes worse incidents involving coworkers or fellow students, where the objectification is continuous and after a while it becomes more than tiresome but rather stressful to have them all keep track of what you wear everyday, whether or not it shows off anything, or have them (rather publicly) get a pool going to see which of them will get to fuck you first (not kidding, guys, who are seemingly otherwise professional sorts, do actually do this kind of shit), which makes you begin to hate yourself and not want to go into school or work everyday. I'm not suggesting that this does not happen to those who aren't considered "beautiful" (whatever that cultural construct might currently be), but its damaging, and I can completely relate to where that girl is probably coming from.
So let's summarize:
being beautiful - can include being objectified and having false friends
being ugly - can include being objectified and having false friends
Being beautiful - can include getting free stuff, getting picked first for opportunities, being first in line for social events
being ugly - none of the above
so
being beautiful - maybe the downsides and definitly some perks
being ugly - same downsides, noneof the perks
now WHAT are we feeling sorry for?
UGLY WOMEN GET THAT TOO
Welcome to the level playing field. If someone's distressed by being "too attractive", they can do something about it to be less so (perhaps the women in this video could put on less makeup, for a start?), and/or they can strive just as hard as everyone else has to in order to be recognized for other things, like intelligence, skill, talent, or whatever. Yes that's right - those who aren't 'pretty', and the 'ugly' have it even worse - must also fight to be something real. Those who are pretty have full access to the playing field plus an optional advantage. Those who are not, do not. Grow up a bit and learn more about life, and you'll be thankful for your blessings instead of cursing them.
I understand these people's problems and why they would feel that way.
And yet at the same time, I don't give a shit!
sooo....who's the asker, red??? hehehehhe
(don't ya wanna be in the, "sifters who get their girls to join" club)
Under heaven all can see beauty, for there is already ugliness.
All know there is good, for there already is evil.
Therefore having and not having emerge together.
difficult and easy lie opposite to each other .
Long and short compare;
High and low lean upon each other;
Front and back follow each other
Therefore the saint exercises 'non-action' to do things, and
exercises, 'non-talking' to teach.
He initiates nothing, and allows ten thousand things to grow:
Rising, yet not considering he did it;
Achieved, yet he does not consider that he completed it.
Therefore, all the work he did last forever. Lao Tzu
Offer to toss a flask of acid in their face, and see how many take up the challenge to live life "on the other side". Oh? What? They don't actually want to be ugly? Then stop complaining about being too pretty.
Great discussion guys.
This video lammmmmmeeee lammee lammmmeee lamy mclame.
That is all.
"oh look at me, blah blah blah, here's MY opinion"
"well no that's not right, this is MY opinion because blah"