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Irishman
You are suggesting that Israel's justification for invading Palestine is Hamas' charter.
No, I'm saying that the checkpoints and refusing 'right of return' are an ugly necessity because of groups like Hamas' with stated goals of reclaiming all of Israel as a single Palestinian state.
...All of this is IN RESPONSE to occupation and oppression.
IN RESPONSE...
...Hamas was created IN RESPONSE to the Israeli occupation...
...the occupation LED to Hamas being elected by creating the conditions for an extremist Palestinian government...
I understand your point about Hamas forming out of the palestinian people's blight, and I even agree fully with you, but previously you stated:
Whatever the historical context, it is the will of the people today that is paramount...
If you want to defend Hamas on the historical context of the Israeli occupation of the surrounding land, then the historical context of that occupation becomes relevant as well. Israel's occuption outside it's '68 borders is the direct result of the aggression of the surrounding Arab nations AGAINST Israel. Even many arab scholars in Egypt and Saudi Arabia are quick to point out that their own nations role in the Palestinian people's blight must not be ignored.
But I again agreed with your earlier statement that historical context leads to endless finger pointing, and the will of the people today is paramount.
If you are suggesting that Hamas was set up to invade Israel you are wrong.
I am not only suggesting that Hamas was set up to invade Israel, I am stating it as fact as it is clearly laid out in Hamas own charter. That is were the will of the people, currently, is paramount. Regardless of what has led up to Hamas growth, in it's current nature it is a divisive and militant organization when real negotiation is needed. The Palestinian Authority and Israel are getting along much better, and in an ideal world the PA would see growing support across Palestine as Israel worked with it. Supporting Hamas though is in direct contradiction to that and just keeps the circle of violence going.
All of the criticisms you lay against Hamas can also be said of Nelson Mandella, the Irish Republicans, and the ANC.
I'm certain your more familiar with the Irish Republicans than I, but I'm pretty sure that calls for the entire UK to become a new Ireland were not entertained.
Irishman
Hezbollah was set up to drive Israeli occupying forces from Lebanon (and it drove MOST but not all of them out in 2000).
More or less, and their mandate is certainly far better than that of Hamas. Israel was only occupying Southern Lebanon to stop PLO attacks on Israel. I'd say that gives some valid reason for being there, but I'd still agree it was wrong. Before you judge Israel alone though, remember the better part of the PLO army in southern Lebanon was there because Jordanian forces had already chased them out of Jordan. Hezbollah has since continued to use southern Lebanon to launch attacks deeper into Israel. Given Hezbollah's strong ties to Syria and Iran though, I think Israel does have legitimate security concerns about just watching Hezbollah build up forces on the border. But more to the point, we were talking about Hamas...
Hamas was set up to drive occupying forces from Palestine.
And I've already told you that Hamas defines Palestine as not just the occupied territories beyond the '68 borders, and not even just the territory outside the '48 borders, but also the entirety of Israel. If you refuse to believe it go read Hamas Charter, and if you still refuse to recognize this I don't see us getting any where.
Israel has refused time and time again to respond to the offer of a ceasefire in return for removing their forces from occupied territory.
The only thing Israel has refused is the 'right of return', they have offered themselves to return back to the '68 borders. Is it really Israel's fault a ceasefire fails when it is most often broken by attacks on Israeli checkpoints or cities?
Amnesty International has even condemned the killings of civilians by Israeli armed forces, and that is a good place to start to learn about what is really going on.
Thanks, others have pointed me to the same report before. You really should go read it, it seems to make it very clear that the vast majority of atrocities committed in Palestinian territory are the result of factional fighting between groups like Fatah and ... Hamas. Amnesty International has also repeatedly condemned Hamas and Hezbollah for using human shields in their tactics. That aught to take out some of the fire in condemning Israel for collateral damages, no?
McCain shows geographical ignorance
Well, the whole conversation was about Afghanistan. Suddenly he brings up Iraq?
I went back and listened to it again. Why did he even bring up Pakistan when the conversation was about Afghanistan? He was doing his own Pecking to Death By Ducks over a comment Obama made and he was trying to work it into the conversation.
Why bring up Pakistan when talking about Afghanistan? And your gonna have the balls to say McCain is ignorant of borders and not just mis speaking Iraq for Afghanistan?
For your benefit, the biggest problem fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan right now is that they are staging their attacks from training camps in the tribal region of Pakistan just over the Afghanistan border. Were it not for those bases in Pakistan, the resistance in Afghanistan wouldn't have a fraction of the strength left that it does.
Another indication McCain probably misspoke would be that he has visited Afghanistan and Iraq previously and there is a good chance he's looked at maps of the region, you know, with the wars and the traveling and all.
Lara Logan Interviews Barack Obama in Afghanistan
Basically, what I see here is a politician who is very well spoken, has a good head on his shoulders and can speak clearly, and intelligently without a teleprompter.
Same can't be said for who has been running your country for the past 8 years, or the running candidate for the 'other' side.
This trip of his is a smart political move though, it's really a case of looking and acting like he's already president, and getting people really comfortable that he would work in the role.
I do hope he is your next president.
I also was watching a program last night here in Australia on John McCain and it showed one of his new supporters, who used to be a Clinton supporter, saying that he was going to vote for McCain because he had been in the airforce and shot down and a prisoner of war, and so that meant that he had what it takes to lead the country.
Um
Wah?
How the hell can people be so dense as to think that because you got SHOT DOWN, and then spent time as a prisoner of war, you have ANY... I mean ANY greater claim AT ALL to be a good leader of a country? Wow... and I've heard many others spout that because of his military record he would be the better leader.
For god's sake people... being a member of the armed forces does NOT immediately make you a fine leader.
(Being a member of the armed forces who showed great bravery and strategic and diplomatic knowledge maybe, but not just automatically 'armed forces = good').
GAH.
Well, I'd say he showed some bravery when he refused a prisoner exchange that would see him released early because of who his father was. Also showed some diplomatic knowledge of what his staying would deny his captors. That said I agree there is a lot more to being president, but his military record is exactly what one would want from a president. He's pretty certain to condemn the use of torture and understand what the cost of war is on the soldiers fighting it. I still favor Obama, but Mccain isn't half so bad as most McCain=Bush folks want to believe.
Irishman
Hamas' charter calls for a withdrawal from all land occupied by Isreal since 1967, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem.
No, it doesn't:
Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences:
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad...
Plainly Hamas Charter defines Palestine as all of modern Israel in addition to the occupied territories.
That is their legitimate goal and attacks sanctioned by Hamas are against military targets on occupied Palestinian territory. Attacks inside Isreal are not sanctioned by Hamas and are condemned by Hamas.
And yet the most recent school shooting inside Israel was praised by Hamas. That is of course consistent with their Charter since all of Israel is rightfully part of Palestine in their view.
I'll walk through the various truce offers made when I've got time make sure I have the correct sources. I clearly recall Hamas' stance on the 10 year truce to be that it was only acceptable as an interim step to re-claiming all of Palestine. None the less, that's a good step but a lot more went into each effort falling apart.
The US has doubled its national debt in one weekend
14 year old suicide bomber prevented from detonating bomb
@bcglorf
So by your logic, if Switzerland would’ve encouraged people to leave nazi-Germany it would’ve been responsible for anything else that happened to those people afterwards? No matter how badly Palestinians are treated in the neighbouring countries (I do agree in general on that point, but you might want to take a look at Jordan; at least one Palestinian over there is now a queen), if their situation in those countries is not much better, or maybe even worse, than it would be in Israel/PA, why don’t the Palestinians return... rhetorical question mark
But all that is beside the point. If something, anything bad happens to people in their own country, why would the neighbouring countries be more responsible than the government of the country itself?
Anyway, thanks for calling me just ignorant and not racist ;-).
Your analogy to Switzerland is badly flawed. When Israel declared it's independence in '48, it was agreeing to abide by the UN sanctioned borders for separate Israeli and Palestinian nations. The surrounding nations are guilty for not accepting that land for Palestine and instead encouraging them to flee while they reclaimed the entirety for Palestine. When that war failed and Israel actually gained some land, the surrounding nations took control of all the 'Palestinian' land that Israel didn't, effectively dissolving Palestine into refugee camps in Israeli, Lebanese, Syrian and Jordanian controlled land.
The surrounding nations are guilty because they took more Palestinian land than Israel, and unilaterally decided that the UN mandated borders for Israel and Palestine were intolerable. I don't understand how Israel is solely responsible for defending itself in war and holding strategically important land they gained in those wars as protection against future invasion. When Israel gained control of most of the occupied territories they were controlled not by palestinians, but by Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt. And those surrounding nations where staging armies on that land and/or launching attacks from them.
Irishman
Hamas does not exist to stir retaliatory strikes from Isreal, that is American propoganda and is completely untrue. Hamas wants to liberate their country which has been illegally occupied by Isreal and wants to reassemble their nation which is an entirely legal and legitimate goal.
By Hamas own charter, they define the illegally occupied country as the ENTIRETY of Israel. If taking that 'back' is a legal and legitimate goal I'm content to disagree.
Isreal is circling and taking over Palestinian land, the idea that they are encouraging any kind of withdrawal is laughable and untrue.
Israel took the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights after the six-day war from, not the Palestinian people, but from Jordan and Syria. Israel was not concerned with circling the Palestinians, as they were not in control of those regions, they were concerned with the armies that Egypt, Syria and Jordan were massing on their borders.
As for withdrawal, have the Palestinians put forward anything similar to Sharon's unilateral disengagement plan? I'd think that, at the least, somewhat qualifies as encouraging withdrawal.
14 year old suicide bomber prevented from detonating bomb
>> ^bcglorf:
>> ^srd:
>> ^RedSky: Guess they would have been a bit hesitant with the news crew there.
Nah, the israeli military has no qualms about censorship or shooting (to kill) reporters.
Yeah, let's bash Israel over a clip about how their checkpoints stop a 14 year-old suicide bomber saving not only civilians, but the poor kid's life as well.
========
Well, correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think the checkpoints are there to save disturbed and/or retarded 14-year old Palestinian kids.
And why would Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt be responsible for Palestinian lives? I’ve never seen any other neighbouring countries being blamed for what happened on their doorstep. Where the Netherlands ever blamed for what happened in Northern Ireland, or Switzerland for the millions killed in nazi-occupied Europe?
And please don’t call people ignorant racists just because they disagree with you.
If you don't think Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt have any responsibility to the Palestinian people then you are ignorant. They were the nations that encouraged the Palestinian people to leave their land in the first place. Then after the war, they treated the Palestinian refugees within their borders every bit as poorly as Israel. One of the biggest complaints leveled against Israel is failing to allow aid into Palestine through it's borders, and yet none of the other neighboring nations are allowing aid in either. Unless Syrian munitions count as aid...
Lara Logan Interviews Barack Obama in Afghanistan
chubby or not, there is not a single prove that any of the hijackers had connection to osama. i know that sounds far out, but prove me wrong.... there isnt any prove...oh, there was a 100.000 dollars transfer to muhammed atta from a pakistani general.... pakistan being a military dictatorship....supported by u.s......this is so weird.... ever seen "zeitgeist"?
Have your tinfoil hat sources made mention of an Ahmad Shah Massoud? I'm sure they have been careful to ignore any mention of him. He was the military leader of the "United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan". In April 2001 he spoke to the EU and warned them of strong ties between the Taliban and Al-Qaida, and that a major terrorist attack was imminent. On Spetember 9th, 2001 he was assassinated in Northern Afghanistan. His death on the 10th made papers all over the world, but the next day's events left his death largely forgotten. Would you still like to insist the tapes are fake? Even though a prominent Afghan military leader who warned of Al-Qaida planning exactly the kind of attack made on 9/11 was assassinated 2 days prior to it?
Irishman
Hamas is not a splinter group, it has a political mandate and the people put Hamas in power. It is more than an analogy I use, there are Palestinian flags flying in the streets of Belfast right now. The Irish republican parties do not recognise Northern Ireland as being British, that is a political position with democratic support.
I call Hamas a splinter group in the sense of operating through suicide bombers and operating on a mandate to remove all Jews from the region because they are Jewws. In Hamas' sick and twisted version of Islam, that's every good muslim's duty. Did you not even look at the quotes I gave you, go read the whole charter and see for yourselft. That they managed to get a political mandate just makes them all the worse. The extremists in the world need to be marginalized, not dignified by negotiating with them. I'd say negotiating with Fatah and refusing to recognize Hamas until they change their mandate is the proper course.
It is not the moderates who have to be negotiated with, no political struggle has ever been resolved by moderates, it is the extremists who need to negotiate.
And few political struggles with extremists have been resolved through negotiating, that's why history is littered with assassinations, coups, and wars. I'd rather see negotiations with the reasonable elements than lending any strength or dignity to extremists.
Hamas recognising Isreal's right to exist would loose the support of the people who put them in power and is political suicide, no government of Palestine, not Hamas nor anyone else put there by those people can ever do that. If it were not for Hamas Palestine would have been wiped off the map, Isreali troops have been beaten back time and time again by Palestinian forces.
Now your listening too closely to Hamas' propaganda. Hamas runs out of Syria, they are primarily an engine to stir retaliatory strikes from Israel. Syria provides the funding, training, and rockets so Hamas can attack Israeli civilians. Then the Hamas militants hide in civilian homes and mosques and wait to see if Israel will come after them. All the while Syria hopes for as many dead Palestinians as possible to rally more anti-Israeli sentiment. Hamas lacks any real military strength to 'beat back' Israeli forces. Israel has always mantained a policy of short and quick military operations. The only goal they have is to defend their civilians from attack. Taking land is not a goal so there is no invasion for Hamas to even try to beat down.
Whatever the historical context, it is the will of the people today that is paramount, this is the very essence of democracy and it is the only way all of these conflict historically have been resolved. The Isreali and Palestinian people are sick of the bloodshed, but only the Palestinians have taken the political steps. This is exactly how it happened in Ireland.
And what political steps are you proposing Palestinians have taken? Electing Hamas, seems to me to be making things worse and giving a mandate of more war and bloodshed, not less. For Israel's part, their political process has continued to encourage withdrawal from expanded settlements and encouraged the handover of land taken in previous wars over to the Palestinian Authority.
14 year old suicide bomber prevented from detonating bomb
Irishman
"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors."
"Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims."
"Leaving the circle of conflict with Israel is a major act of treason and it will bring curse on its perpetrators."
Once again, if you want to go back to Israel's declaration of independence I don't think it's needed to go find any quotes from Arab nations about wiping anyone off the map. The formerly Iraq,Syria,Lebanon,Jordan and Exgypt sent nazi trained armies against Israel to destroy it, urging the Palestinian people to flee and return a few days later after the presumed victory. When Israel managed to win, the mess we see today began in full. The Arab nations failed to provide for the Palestinian people they'd encouraged to flee, and Israel was stuck with serious security problems with letting everyone simply return. The constant run of wars since has shown those security concerns to be undeniably valid.
A political solution would be great, and your right in spirit about negotiating with moderates to remove borders. The 2 problems are that Hamas is not the moderate group to negotiate with until it recognizes Israel's right to exist, and that surrounding Arab nations like Iran and Syria keep encouraging the rogue extremists with funding, training and weapons.
In reply to this comment by Irishman:
The attacks are in response to Isreali oppression just as Irish Republican attacks in the 70s were in response to British oppression.
The longer the oppression exists, the less grip Hamas will have over splinter groups just as the political wing of the Irish Republican Army has no control over rogue elements and splinter groups.
Arab nations did not say they wanted to wipe Isreal off the map, they refused to recognise its sovereignty and there are political and historical reasons for this. This is a quote also attributed to Ahmadinejad as well, it is incorrect and is bandied around in American media all the time. Neither Iran nor any Arab nation has claimed to want to attack Isreal or wipe it off the map.
Removing borders will not stop splinter groups attacking Isreal, but doing it in conjunction with a political process with Hamas WILL, just as it has in Ireland.
In reply to this comment by bcglorf:
If you want to go back to 1948 then you need to blame the Arab nations for abandoning the Palestinian people when they bid to wipe Israel out upon declaring it's independence.
The settlement policy of territory outside the '68 borders is criminal. But so are Syrian and Iranian rockets being launched by Hamas against Isreali civilians. Comparing atrocities though doesn't fix anything.
Despite knowing that removing the borders and checkpoints would create much good will, Israel can't ignore that Hamas agents would also take advantage of that to launch rockets into Jerusalem. When an Israeli checkpoint keeps a suicide bomber out, and saves a 14 year-old life, it is doing something good.
14 year old suicide bomber prevented from detonating bomb
Here we go with the 'racist' or 'liberal' or 'conspiracy theorist' labelling again.
Millions of Palestinian refugees, illegal landgrabbing, terrorism, bulldozing down houses and Isreali tanks on Palestinian streets isn't complicated.
I've heard the historical and religious argument about Isreal and Palestine, maybe it's about time people started calling it for what it is. It's a land grab.
I agree, land grab is most certainly what it amounts to. The land Israel has beyond it's 1948 borders has all been taken by it in wars to gain strategic protection to survive against hostile neighbors.
As for millions of Palestinian lives, your forgetting to blame the better part of the dead refugees on lack of aid from Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt.
14 year old suicide bomber prevented from detonating bomb
There is a HUGE distinction between the Isreali people and the actions of their military, they do not support it, they are deeply ashamed of it.
Hamas is a democratically elected government who have fought the occupying Isreali forces off the Palestinan streets for years. They have defended their country and that is why they have the support of the Palestinians.
Sorry, but it isn't more complicated than that. Isreal is terrorising Palestine and has done for years. There is a huge movement in Ireland supporting the Palestinian people and educating people about the realities of the situation.
Go read Hamas founding charter and tell me again about how great they are.