Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Yeah video of the actual hanging would fall squarely into the snuff area and be eligible for immediate discard.

I tried to make the argument that the lead-up-to video of the hanging (currently on the main page), while not technically the act, is a snuff video nonetheless.

But seeing as how Fox News and the others have been running it non-stop, it's more of an example of extremely bad taste.

I've long grown weary of having to apologize for my fellow Americans over the last six years.

They're just slow, no apologies necessary, just show them how its done! (way better that the ass-kickin' they deserve, and, much easier on the fist)

I don't think any military engagement should be santizied from the media these and other events must be known of, you want to go to war you have to accept everything that comes with it and not lie to the public by embedding the reporters with the aggressors.

The Saddam video, Hiroshima video, Pearl harbor video, the countless records of World War 2, the 9/11 video, the Daniel Pearl video, Beslan video, the countless PMC videos out there (am looking at you Blackwater) are all important. I don't understand why 9/11 has to consitute history and this doesn't. If Osama Bin Laden was caught tomorrow are you really telling me they would give him a fair trail and let him live eternally in a federally funded prison? Hell no.

The public must know of them all and make their own call, just like they were allowed in Vietnam. Political thinking is flawed, the only time one can sell a military engagement to a populace is when it is of utmost importance to national securtiy, the lack of unbiased analysis by the media concentrated in New York contributed to the beating of the drums of war.

I don't see how pulling a 1984 cleansing event is of benefit. I agree that the actual execution video should not be shown. But coverage should be. These events have incrediable impact on geopolitics. Already there are questions as to the legality of the verdicted reached, which could pan out to make Saddam seem like a Sunni matyr and further inflame secterian violence.

Bah, even if it was a fair trial he'd still be considered a martyr by some.

So, I suppose, the quesition, what is the statistical relationship between "degree of fairness" and % of people convinced he's a martyr?

There's an interesting little calculus/stats/sociology(?) question to ponder...

Even if I had to power to pull off a "1984 cleansing event", I wouldn't, farhad - but that's not the point.

It's about exercising a little tact, a little dignity; that some things should remain private, even in a camera-phone reality-TV digital world.

yeah, they found the poor shlubb in a hole on tv already, its pretty bad his ramblings later caught on film furthered his own demise in the collective, civilized eyes-pathetic trial appearances notwithstanding,...almost like televising the euthanasia of a dog,...but, the depths to which we all could sink, unattended, is what you watch in his execution, as well as the image that could, or could never be in the mirror, every day-So, knowing the potential for calamity, you hide certain aspects of..."Reality" to keep the masses, asses...
Farhads right, theo, all, and the balance others chose for us, is what we have to deal with.

All Saddam, all the time.

It's all over the web right now, theo, if I hadn't posted it someone surely else would have. Do know that I would have never posted the unedited version.

tsk tsk I just saw it posted on VS

theo47 got to it. I didn't even get to countdown to 0. *g*

I'm curious, theo, whose dignity and tact are you striving to preserve? I see this clip as an important historic document that serves in its starkness to prompt discussion on state sanctioned murder. Granted, it's no Shannon-Elizabeth-gets-raped-by-a-snowman, but I feel it has its place here.

> But seeing as how Fox News and the others have been running it non-stop,
> it's more of an example of extremely bad taste.

It doesn't make sense to me, allowing Fox News to be your arbiter of what is snuff vs. bad taste. But if so:

The cell phone video of the execution, taken from in front of the gallows, emerged after 4 p.m. EST. The Al-Jazeera satellite network ran an abridged version that was picked up in the United States by Fox News Channel.

Will someone second that bannination, please? Thanks.

Jeepers, theo, what happened to coming over and explaining why?

I'm in two minds on this one. On the one hand it's unpleasant stuff and I generally don't like to be repelled when I visit Videosift.

But then this is capital punishment, sanctioned by government, mandated by the people. I don't agree with capital punishment but plenty of people do. Is this something we should hide and be protected from? Should we not have the right to view it without traipsing to the darker corners of the net? This kind of material is certainly different to a snuff film - which as I understand it is about filming a murder and making that material available in some way.

Maybe the question is - should this be on Videosift? If not then where do you draw the line on video of wars, genocide etc which have educational and historical merit?

honestly, i don't think this video has a place at the sift ...

but some food for thought because if there is a snuff rule it should be followed. although it's not always followed here (examples 1 & 2 spring to mind here). the hanging video is far less graphic than seeing jfk's skull blown to bits ... and how does one have more historical value than the other??

JFK's assassination is an important historical event. Mainly due to the US goverment stating that he got shot from the Texas Book Depository which would be a head shot to the back, and not back and to the left as shown in the Zapruder film. It was the start of the end of the first Roman Catholic President and Camelot as a whole.

His death lead to the swearing in of Lydon B. Johnson as president and almost immediate escalation of American involvement in South East Asia, based principally on the Gulf Of Tonkin incident. When JFK at the time was himself considering disengaging from pursuing a 'proxy war' with US troops against the Soviet Union and Communism in general.

Beyond the obvious questions of goverment involvement and knowledge of the assassination attempt, the strange circumstances of the event, the fact that the assassin clearly left a trail to be found, got assassinated two days later by Jack Ruby for unknown and unclear reasons. The basic fact remains that if JFK had lived our world would be vastly different then what it is now. Thus the videos posted form important historical artifacts.

Saddam Hussein, and the video that was posted was enough. We don't need to see him hanging. I would apply the same historical reverence to any execution video, as I do not believe executions are historic events. They are subjective to the people who suffered from the tyranny of others.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Well put Farhad.

Ladybug makes a good point. We can always apply the imprimitur of "historical weight" when justifying either a guy hanging with a broken neck or a guy with pieces of his skull blown into the air.

Video of Mussolini being crucified upside down and dragged through the streets doesn't belong on the Sift. I don't think the Zapruder film without any other context belongs either. Even though both are historically momentous.

The Saddam execution video qualifies as objectionable because its only purpose is to show a killing. Or maybe the amazing things you can get with a cellphone these days. I can see the Verizon commercial now.

I watched the JFK video last night and wondered the same thing that Ladybug thought. It clearly showed someone's death, historical or not...so in this forum it does beg the question whether or not it should be here. Strict adherence to policy say that it shouldn't.

First, I really want to apologize to anyone who was offended by my posting the video (well, except theo, who was kind of a dick about it). That certainly wasn't my intent, and had I read this thread before posting, I assure you I wouldn't have done it.

While I've been viewing and voting here for some time, this is only the second time I've attempted posting (first was a dupe), and that's the currency that rightfully determines value and authority on the site. I wholly understand that all y'all stars and diamonds and esp. dag say what goes, and I'm eager to abide. This site is important to me for a number of reasons, and I would never want to do anything to jeopardize or compromise it in any way.

I posted the video because I believe it's of significant historical importance. I thought, like the Zapruder film, that outweighed the nature of the content.

I believe the Sadaam video is important both for the event that it depicts and as an artifact itself, as it seems probable it was sanctioned by the authorities as a way to get the imagery out to the Iraq (and U.S.) populace without being responsible for airing 'officially sanctioned' footage of a morally questionable nature.

Also, as ren mentioned in the discussion about promoting the ambushed convoy in Iraq footage, "[s]houldn't people see the deaths they are partly responsible for?" I don't believe in forcing anyone to watch anything, but I do believe strongly in making information, especially primary source material of historically significant events, freely available.

That aside, I think farhad makes compelling arguments for the greater historical significance of the Kennedy assassination to the deciders on the site, and the most salient point regarding the Zapruder footage itself seems to be that it carries information pertaining to the still disputed nature of the event, which doesn't immediately seem to be the case with the Sadaam video. Both reasons seem completely sound and more than enough to make the distinction.

But bottom line, this distinction, while appreciated and arguably important, is ultimately unnecessary. The site can and does fully function on a one-off, "I-know-it-when-I-see-it" basis, and while the more concrete codification of the policies will make issues like this more clearcut for submitters in the future (as will my better keeping up with Sift Talk), they aren't completely necessary given the filters in place, and may (unnecessarily?) preclude important footage like Zapruder's in the future.

Just trying to contribute to the discussion. Seeing as I still haven't been able to contribute a video....

Well said, oilcan.

And see below...perhaps both videos are historically newsworthy?

__________________________________________________

Iraq govt to probe filming of Saddam hanging
Mon Jan 1, 2007 3:27 PM ET

By Mussab Al-Khairalla and Alastair Macdonald

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - The Iraqi government launched an inquiry on Monday into how guards filmed and taunted Saddam Hussein on the gallows, turning his execution into a televised spectacle that has inflamed sectarian anger.

A senior Iraqi official told Reuters the U.S. ambassador tried to persuade Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki not to rush into hanging the former president just four days after his appeal was turned down, urging the government two wait another two weeks.

News of the ousted strongman's death on Saturday and of his treatment by officials of the Shi'ite-led government was blamed by one witness for sparking a prison riot among mainly Sunni Arab inmates at a jail near the northern city of Mosul.

An adviser to Maliki, Sami al-Askari, told Reuters: "There were a few guards who shouted slogans that were inappropriate and that's now the subject of a government investigation."

The government released video showing the hangman chatting to a composed Saddam as he placed the noose round his neck.

But mobile phone footage on the Web showed guards shouting "Go to hell!", chanting the name of a Shi'ite militia leader and exchanging insults with Saddam before he fell through the trap in mid-prayer and his body swung, broken-necked, on the rope. More from Reuters.

I love the discussions that take place here on VS, you should see the forum I moderate....sigh

Good points from both sides

I'm sorry you thought I was a dick to you...no, wait - no, I'm not.

You people are acting like if it isn't on VS, it isn't on the internets. Or that scrubbing anything from one site means 1984 conspiracy theories and paranoia.

There's plenty of places for you to get your jollies off watching people have sex, get killed, or whatever - but the Sift holds itself up to a different standard.

If you had to pay to see VS content, then maybe the content rules (so simple and plain an orangutan could follow them) could be let go. But as a site looking to appeal to a broader audience (not to mention advertisers), this is the way it is. Deal.

It's back, but apparently if someone gets a star they can't be nominated for bannination. I know, because I tried... http://www.videosift.com/video/Execution-of-Saddam-Hussein-Full-Video-Not-Edited-for-TV#72035

Great, now we've got starred members openly defying the rules, and there are still morons crying "free speech!" in the comments.

Go. Somewhere. Else. If. You. Want. To. See. Snuff. Or. Porn.

How many people who are appaled by this video are in favour of the death penalty?

That video has no place anywhere, as does the death penalty. Barbaric is not the word. As we are now seeing in Iraq, violence begets violence.

One thing I loved about the sift is the discussions that emerge from such topics, I want the Sift to be such. I don't want it to become the next MetaCafe with funny videos and all that only, while you believe that everyone knows about all the avenues of the internet the fact is that they don't. This is why posts like TED Talk, BBC Documentaries and other knowledge sifts do so well.

And even if these videos get posted to the queue. There is an army of users ready to moderate. But it's good that there is place on the Sift to discuss this issue. Because we sure as hell can't expect the same from the mainstream media outlets. To who the hanging seemed to be a mere footnote.

I understand that you may be computer savvy and knowledgeable about geopolitical events but frankly most of population isn't, this is how a war on Iraq gets sold under the pretense of the war on terror. I find it shallow of you to think that you represent the majority thinking. You downvoted the PMC video I posted ages ago without even reading the comment thread about it, another issue that is not at all covered in the media. And falling back on insults like moron and all. What do you want this to become? Youtube?

theo ... no one even mentioned free speech in the comment section of the recently posted video ... so i'm not sure where you pulled that from?

thank you for your explanation, farhad ... but a death is a death is a death when captured on video regardless if it's an execution, assassination or ambush.

"I think the human race needs to think more about killing, how much evil must we do in order to do good?"

- Robert S. McNamara

Wow. My first attempted bannation. I don't know what to say accept that I


A) Felt that the video does indeed hold some historical/politcal significance, both in the sense of the event itself as well as the controversy surrounding it's airing/existence. My post of it was therefore an attempt to spawn discussion of it and was not meant to offend anyone.

and

B) I did so somewhat prematurely, before I noticed this discussion thread, which obviously would have negated my desire to post it... as you're all obviously already talking about it, picking sides, etc etc etc.

So, to everyone who's toes I've stepped on, I apologize only for my negligence in research before posting, not however for offending you, because y'all can always choose not to watch.... and I do believe that videos of the 'snuf' vein, are capable of being the occasional exception.



Ciao.

Raven

PS I do believe this video will one day be compared with the Zapruder film for its politcal relevance... as it will no doubt spawn as much discussion and perhaps even more of a politcal-shit-storm over the next few years.

I am against the death penalty, I dont go here to see snuff, but I still think this video should stay. its a historical document, it serves several purposes, both documenting and politics. I dont think anyone is completely immune to seeing a hanging, the brutality of seeing a state wanting to call itself civilized, deliberately killing another human, is sick. Yeah the guy was a criminal, a murderer, a barbaric psychopath of a dictator, killing thousands, and by those standards, he deserved death surely. Nonetheless, barbaric acts are... barbaric, and they dont belong to a civilized state. For me, this is about being the better, bigger person.

"An eye for an eye will make us all blind."

Why are there bans being thrown about simply for posting this video? It is not like oilcan and/or raven are pushing their website ShiitesGoneWild.com

Simmer down.

Holding an idealistic view about abolishing capital punishment is one thing, actually implementing such a system state wide is an entirely different thing. I don't see why the state should make citizens pay more taxes to keep criminals in prison for life. Nor do I see citizen accepting such a scheme.

It's the same arguement as anti-abortionists make, they say that it's killing babies and what not. If that is the case, then the state should sanction taxes to citizens to run proper foster homes for abandoned and unwanted children, or better yet families must willingly sponsor a child's education and livelihood. They want to abolish Roe Vs Wade without realizing that it has lead to a marked decrease in the amount of criminal activity (see Freakanomics).

One must look at issues with a realistic mind set. I believe capital punishment still has it's place in our world, it would slowly diminish itself over time as society progresses.

This video is only days away from being a Toby Keith music video.

And then we will have to re-argue whether the music outweighs the snuff. If Toby Keith, then probably not.

To me, the key is the context for the VS no-snuff rule. The Zapruder film would be valid in a larger documentary about the Kennedy assassination.
You should be able to post something informative and illuminating about the Rape of Nanking here. You should not be permitted to post rapes in Nanking.

The Saddam snuff video as posted doesn't really tell a story. It may be political but it is an extremely weak historical document.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I guess I've seen that Zapruder film so many times that I am numb to its snuff-ness. However, perhaps for clarity's sake, we should remove it, and the "historical context" loophole - as that opens a wide swathe of gray area, of which the Saddam video is a prime example.

maybe it's best, dag ... with the zapruder film on the front page in the top 15 list ... it may be sending conflicting messages.

In reply to your comment:
“jeez, do we need to put something on the submit page? "Don't submit Sadam's Execution"”

Don't delete the Zapruder!! I understand the not-so-fun spot you've been put in because of my actions so I can see why this seems like a good idea... but it really really is history, not only in the sense of the event but in that it is accepted content on the Sift. Do we really want to start editing past content, in a sense editing our own history? Its too Orwellian, don't go down this road Dag!

I also understand the precedent being set and I promise that I will never again post snuff.

From now on I will keep my eyes out for chicks getting raped by snowmen, circus freaks, and skateboarding dogs

i am afraid it is gone. for the sanity of the sift. personally i think the JFK assasination piece is fine but i realise it would only attract more postings of Saddams execution.

think it can be resurected from the sift bins in the future?

oilcans alright. don't ban him....he can be watched theo47

Peas

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I liked the one in the top 15 a lot. Especially how it showed the cutting-away from the soap opera. It really puts you there in that time.

I have discarded it though, and the stablized Zapruder film. So no more gray area. I have to go now, I'm late for a Harry Potter book burning.

This is all a lesson in context, folks - the Zapruder film/Kennedy assassination happened over 40 years ago and actually IS history, while Saddam's execution just happened the other friggin' day.

And to repeat myself yet again, as there are clearly people here who just watch the pretty images and don't read, you can see this thing pretty much EVERYPLACE ELSE on the internet. It's deliberately not being included here, per the rules.

How stupid do you have to be not to get this?

awww dag ... *hugs*

stupid enough to give you something to chew on. yawn

"Stupid" eh? Nice one Theo.

There are perfectly reasonable arguments as to why the Saddam vid could be posted, many of which have been articulated.

Then there is a mechanism in place for submissions to be thrown out or one could let the votes tell the story. Either way "the system", as it's been designed, works to exclude items you or others don't like or are deemed to fall foul of the posting guidelines.


To be honest I find your overbearing, net cop behaviour a bit more worrying.


One other thing that is ticking me off is the casual familiarity with which the term "snuff" is being wielded. That's a term subject to considerable interpretation.

I quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snuff_film;

"The term "snuff film" does not, at least currently, have a clear definition. Neither the Motion Picture Association of America, The Federal Communications Commission, The Federal Bureau of Investigation, nor any U.S. Agency have put forth legislation or terminology that would define the term "snuff film" authoritatively. Some possible definitions include; a number of acts (murder of animals, faked deaths, accidental deaths, suicides, murders) which are filmed and only later distributed for commercial gain and/or entertainment. Some definitions state that snuff films must be pornographic in nature.[1]

The most common definition of a snuff film is that its a motion picture showing the actual murder of a human being and is produced, perpetrated, and distributed solely for the purpose of profit. This definition thereby excludes recordings of murders caught by accident, and videotapes of actual murders that were never intended to be released as entertainment films. Given these criteria, the existence of snuff films is highly questionable, and commercial snuff films have long been relegated by skeptics to the realm of urban legend and moral panic. To date, no film generally accepted as fitting this definition has been found.[2]"

The numbers in brackets are citations. In my opinion, the Saddam video is certainly not snuff.


Snopes also has an article addressing the question of the existence of one accepted definition of snuff - http://www.snopes.com/horrors/madmen/snuff.asp

They argue that it's a myth and in this day and age I can see why. It's simply alot easier to fake the material.

So where does this leave the Saddam video? Well by not applying a knee-jerk definition this will allow us to calmly assess whether similar submissions are suitable for the Sift, on a case by case basis.

okay, first off i don't know if the embed was changed, but you NEVER SEE SADDAM HANGED (in the posted video). you see him up to the point where they place the noose around his neck, and then THAT'S IT!! *HOW* can this be considered a snuff piece?!

second, if the entire vid WAS posted, i STILL fail to see how it's a snuff film! in bad taste, perhaps... but certainly not snuff. maybe if someone posted 'faces of death' then sure... but until then, leave it alone. exceptions have been made for 'porn' in the past due to [sarcastic quote] historical context [sarcastic unquote]. i don't understand why something such as this shouldn't fall into the same category. granted, it happened just the other day, but if it happened an HOUR ago, it's still history!

History is information about the recorded past. [ Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_%28disambiguation%29 ]

Happy New Year indeed. My New Year's resolution is 1280x1024. The Way of the Snake isn't looking so bad lately.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

Deano - you have a good point, perhaps we're misusing the term snuff. I don't want this to spin out of control, but I can only tell you what James and I were thinking, "way-back-then" when we put together the posting guidelines.

Our thoughts were that there are already so many sites that cater for the lurid, prurient human side that we all have. We wanted to make a zone that was free of porn and "Faces of Death" type content that you might see someplace like Somethingawful.com or stileproject.com or even Fark.com.

So maybe it's not "snuff" but we just don't want videos that show actual people dieing on the camera. IIRC, hostage beheading videos were showing up around the time that the Sift started, and it might have been a partial reaction to that. I'm glad we made that decision.

We were probably wrong in bending the rules for the Kennedy assasination, it is historically significant, but it also documents a real human being dieing in front of your eyes, which is something we have chosen to exclude from the Sift.

Rules is rules and understood for the same reasons that 99% of us are probably here. The actual videos have in some ways become less relevant than the written postings on this debate of 'what is snuff?'.

I was pissed to lose my JFK posting but it's left a firm rule now on the posting of actual deaths posted on VS.

hopefully the 'what is porn?' debate will be more relaxed

Fair enough Dag, my remaining concern was that submissions like JFK would remain and create contradictions.

However I would hope that if a video is borderline i.e a sifter isn't 100% sure despite reading the guidelines, that it could be published for review, without it getting personal and immediate calls for banination.

Comment hidden because you are ignoring dag. (show it anyway)

I agree - I think we need to be prudent with the bannination. It's great for getting rid of egregious self-promoters and spammers, but we should exercise restraint with regard to Sifters who are actually part of the community and have some post/comment history.

All I know is, I've got a few personal visits to make now - some VideoSift MeetUps, if you will.

@farhad: I have one thing to raise to counter the abortion points you've raised: lengthy queues for adoption.

You don't need foster homes for babies given up at birth - people are lining up for years to get them. Waste of "resources", to be callous about it.

lol - Theo, I think we also introduced the "visitor brings the beer" rule...

Now that Sogoddamn Insane is gone, wouldn't it be tits, if we would excise two more Human schizms from the Big Blue Mole, KiM Jong and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and do so with such swift and righteous spectacle, with complete disregard for the reactions from th'nay-sayers?
Makes no since to most sane folk, that these two should continue to breathe the same air, or pollute one more mind, and distract us from progress as humans, one more millisecond.....Tell China to kiss our asses when they bitch, Russia can suck Uncle Sams cock, and France can just piss the fuck off....The United Nations should be dressed in clown suits and made to march seven times around Manhattan, should they offer anything but praise. Choose a surgical black op, or a nuke down the throat that we all find out about, AFTER these diseased, throwbacks are eradicated.
In choggies' perfect world, problems are solved, when they are tiny, and large ones are burned, the ashes to be sifted through later, for salvagable material.....
The alternatives include, the bull shit we engage in now, and another generation of programmed, imprinted, hate, in the form of tots whose souls are being stolen from them, at birth.
Allah is a cocksucker, belonging to a large segment of unfortunates, who are just not up to speed with the program of what it means to "Be Here Now"!
"Oh just let them all believe what they want to" may just prove to be the most destrutive form of denial we indulge in. Wherever a lie or illusion is embraced, every action, sentiment, and expression, is tainted with the original lie, and in the end, destruction.
(singing) America, "Fuck Yeah", ....
Oh, and when they die, we must make public spectacle of them, for whomever would rise up to take their place. Prefer doused in petrol, set alight, then catapulted into one of the still-standing sections of the Berlin Wall, or fuck it, That flat, smooth curved United Nations Building.

yet again, choggie has derailed a perfectly sane conversation with a ranting diatribe... I swear mi amigo, some day... to the moon, baby, to the moon!

Choggie that was entirely ridiculous.

Now heres the sane solution to appease both camps-Make a place on the sift for all this cantankerous shit that gets the collective panties knotted, and offer an "i Agree " entry thingy with some statement that makes eeeeeveryone feeeel good. Don't EDIT Or dissallow, anything "REAL" as in actual event, of historic significance, etc etc, and simply don't allow the innane bullshit like self-posting, mash-ups from retarded geeks, karaoke in fromt of a webcam, etc...
The crap we all hate already, and are trying to set the sift apart from. Why all the politics of what "I" think....it's all the same, from either side, just blah blah...

No one condones them, but the belief that armed incursion would miraculously fix everything is wrong. This has been tried and failed in Cuba, Vietnam, Somalia, Libya, and now is backlashing in Iraq. All you are supporting there is a new form of imperialism.

chog, ren already designed a pr0n tag for the Sift as a joke. As dag and others have said countless times before, there are many places on the Net where you can view these things; you don't have to see them here.

We're glad Saddam's gone and not burdening us with upkeep/maintenance costs, and perhaps he repented on his, er, death-noose and went to heaven, or perhaps he stayed an evil jerk and is now burning in hell - but we don't need to broadcast it here.

I realized that what we basically don't want at the Sift are vids that show:
1. creation of life, and
2. destruction of life.

By that, of course, I refer to the no-pr0n and no-snuff rules.

ren's commemorative pr0n Sift:
http://mwhite.slowchop.com/vs_porn.jpg

Now Available at many Australian airport gift shops!

Oddly enough, I have that .jpg saved already.

Look, regardless of your view on Reagan shooting, JFK assaination, etc. and whether or not real-world violence should be banned from sift...

Saddam hanging and dead Crocodile Hunters, are just sensational tabloidism. Wait a year and then decide if it is historical.

Anyways, what about all the unmanned air combat vehicle videos and military porn showing people being blown up and shot with missles, 50cal, etc. Those humans are still humans. Is someone going to scrub all those videos?

So I could care less about what is snuffy and what is historic.

Saddam is clearly on the same level as Paris Hilton sex video. Just stupid Fox-news level sensationalism.

However we do scrub the vids if we have indication that people are buying the farm - some of the milpr0n are target ranges - remembering the aircrash videos, we have been rather consistent even on that front.